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Re: General Discussion

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:11 am
by TFIR
civ ollilavad wrote:If I were the Orioles I would be very happy to get Bieber or Sheffield or McKenzie. But I see no logic for trading any of them.
I agree with that civ - but there is a good chance they get that type of return...from someone. Just hoping it isn't us - and since Machado says "I'm a shortstop" i don't think it's likely the Indians are going there.

Re: General Discussion

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:23 am
by Hillbilly
I have started to change my mind a bit on this. With the emergence of Bieber, and our other starters locked up a while, I think I would be willing to include McKenzie in the deal if Britton was also in the deal and the other prospects we traded were not named Mejia.

I would trade McKenzie, one of our CF prospects like Zimmer or Allen, one of our SS prospects like Gonzalez or Castro, then another guy or two like Merritt, Yandy, Civale, or the like for Machado and Britton.

Both are rentals so I think that is more than fair. And while good young players, all you could say are expendable.

With Machado and Adam Jones both free agents I think Gonzalez and a CF'er would be very appealing to them.

Re: General Discussion

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:47 pm
by civ ollilavad
McKenzie, one of our CF prospects like Zimmer or Allen, one of our SS prospects like Gonzalez or Castro, then another guy or two like Merritt, Yandy, Civale, or the like for Machado and Britton.
So let's see how this compares with a deal we KNOW the Indians were willing to make for Lucroy, who was not a rental, and who everyone thought at the time was pretty valuable: We offered Mejia [kind of an equivalent if not superior to McKenzie as a prospect], Allen, Chang and Armstrong. Similar package but this one gives us more, with Britton, but less, since they are both gone at the end of the year. '

And one they actually made: Miller for 3 playoff and 2 1/4 regular seasons cost 2 very good prospects, Sheffield and Frazier. McKenzie = Sheffield. The rest of your package might equal Frazier.

I can't think the Indians are going to pay dearly for rentals. Jay Bruce was a rental last year [clearly not to Machado standard] and all he cost us was minor-league pitcher Ryder Ryan.
Joe Smith rental cost Thomas Pannone and Samad Taylor.

Yankees might do this, it doesn't seem like it's a Cleveland kind of deal. Maybe if we got an OF rental of Machado ability. Otherwise I think the team still has many holes to make it all the way

Re: General Discussion

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:31 pm
by Hillbilly
I understand but I am looking at it from this perspective --

We have 3 CF'ers who have all hit the major league club around the same time in Naquin, Zimmer, and Allen. Adam Jones is a free agent to be for Orioles so I think they would be interested in one. And we can afford to deal one. Wouldn't hurt us much at all. (Naquin is further along and we need the OF help right now so don't think I'd deal him)

We have a bunch of SS prospects in the minors. I personally like Gonzalez and Castro. I know you like Chang. Can we easily afford to trade one of them? Yup, wouldn't hurt us at all. If they trade Machado I have to think a young SS would be attractive to them.

You don't care about Yandy, I like him. But when is he going to play? Where is he going to play? Can we live without him? Yup...

When and where is Merritt going to start? How many young SP prospects do we have right now? Would losing a guy like Civale or similar hurt us? Not at all... We traded Pannone last year for a set up guy and nobody lost a second of sleep. I liked him more than anybody. But we are still in same boat.

McKenzie, as good of a prospect as he is, where does he fit? He is going to be ready probably this time next year. Where does he fit? All our guys are locked up. Bieber looks good. Can we live without him?

I say go for it. Window is open right now. We can put together a real nice package that doesn't really set us back so go for it. McKenzie is really the only prospect I'm offering that would leave a mark.

(and honestly, I'm not crazy about scrawny pitchers. They tend to break down more easily than the bigger guys. But that's just my worthless opinion and not going into my thinking here)

Re: General Discussion

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:53 pm
by civ ollilavad
I'm not crazy about scrawny pitchers. They tend to break down more easily than the bigger guys
Bartolo makes your case pretty well on that one.

Re: General Discussion

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:03 pm
by civ ollilavad
I don't see any real harm in losing everyone on your list with the exception of Mejia and is he alone worth the Machado rental? Could well be. I was looking at Indians' past deals to guess if they would do it. And I still want an Outfielder, if there are any to get

Re: General Discussion

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:12 pm
by Hillbilly
?

I specifically said I would use McKenzie in a package for Machado and Britton as long as Mejia was not in the package.

Re: General Discussion

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:23 pm
by civ ollilavad
my bad. guess I better retire and concentrate fulltime on the forum

Re: General Discussion

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:43 pm
by Hillbilly
It’s all good. Me personally, I could see letting McKenzie go, I can rationalize it. But Mejia being a catcher I just can’t.

For a guy signed long term, like the Miller trade, yeah.

Re: General Discussion

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:39 am
by civ ollilavad
what has anyone seen about outfielders who may be on the market? But not Jay Bruce again thankyou.

Re: General Discussion

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:49 am
by Hillbilly
CLEVELAND — Aside from a move to bolster the bullpen or perhaps a mega-aggressive trade to acquire Baltimore Orioles star Manny Machado, one area of need the Indians could address before the trade deadline is in the outfield.

But, for a number of reasons, many external or internal options might be blocked.

Michael Brantley has put up an All-Star caliber season in left field and can be comfortably written into the No. 2 spot in the lineup every day. Center field and right field have been somewhat of a mess, a revolving door without much consistency.

And, the current injury situation hasn’t helped things. Bradley Zimmer (right shoulder inflammation) and Lonnie Chisenhall (left calf strain) are both out for several weeks as a minimum. That leaves Greg Allen, Tyler Naquin, Brandon Guyer and Rajai Davis to man center field and right field every day.

The Indians could use an upgrade but their options are limited. The free-agent market is barren. The Orioles’ Adam Jones might be the biggest name available on a selling team, but his production has taken a significant downturn (101 wRC+, or about league average), he’s been borderline awful in center field (-18 defensive runs saved) and he’d be a rental, as he’s finishing up a six-year, $85.5 million deal this season.

As Indians president of operations Chris Antonetti outlined recently, the primary focus will be to add controllable assets who can remain in Cleveland beyond this year. That isn’t to say the Indians won’t go the route of adding a three-month rental, but other paths will first be explored to acquire players who can help the Indians through their contention window, which has a good chance to run through at least the 2020 or 2021 seasons.

Detroit Tigers right fielder Nick Castellanos could have a hefty price tag, as he still has a year of arbitration left, but even in a rebuilding state, would the Tigers deal such valuable asset within the division? It’s one of those weird unwritten rules that so many teams seem to follow, even in an instance in which a potential deal might fit so well for both clubs. Castellanos has been poor defensively (-11 DRS) but has been terrific at the plate, hitting .302 with an .865 OPS in the middle of the Tigers lineup this season.

Indians manager Terry Francona has repeatedly pointed out this year how important Guyer is to the club as the main offensive option in the outfield as a right-handed bat, and Davis’ impact comes from his legs. Castellanos would help to ease that burden, but a silly fear of helping a division foe might block any progress there.

The Cincinnati Reds might have two options. One is center fielder Billy Hamilton, a terrific defensive player who is also a terror on the bases and under club control through next season. But he hasn’t reached base consistently enough to let his speed impact the game as much as it could. Hamilton’s on-base percentage has hovered around .300 the last three seasons, so even though he’s as much fun to watch on the bases as any player in baseball, he hasn’t been on base very often.

The other option is Adam Duvall, who is under club control through 2021. He’s having a down year in some respects, hitting .204 with a .683 on-base percentage, well below his career average of .760, but his line-drive and hard-hit percentages are both up from 2017.

A couple of other secondary options remain, but the Indians certainly have a much higher number of quality candidates to bolster the bullpen than they do to help an outfield that has lacked offensive punch. Entering Saturday’s game, the Indians outfield had a collective fWAR of 1.9, 23rd in baseball, and its 88 wRC+ was 24th. Brantley this season has 1.3 fWAR by himself.

The biggest internal option is top prospect Francisco Mejia, a catcher by trade who the Indians have had splitting time in the outfield in an effort to find another avenue to get his bat to the major leagues.

Mejia, a switch-hitter, is known more for what he can do at the plate than behind it. This season, he’s hitting .279 with a .758 OPS for Triple-A Columbus. He’d be a valuable addition to the Indians lineup, but that’s contingent on him as least being serviceable in right field.

Promoting Mejia to bolster the lineup and seeing how he handles right field in the majors is also partly a possibly because of the American League Central, which has become the worst division in baseball and given the Indians a double-digit games lead. Without having to worry about a divisional race, the Indians could have more leeway to find out if Mejia can be their answer.

Thus far, the Indians say they haven’t seen enough from him during his time in right field to warrant a promotion. Mejia wants to remain primarily a catcher, and it sounds like he hasn’t yet bought into the idea of regularly playing right field as much as is needed, and that could be one of the reasons he’s taking right field in Columbus instead of Cleveland.

“He really wants to be a catcher,” Francona said of Mejia on Saturday. “I don’t disagree with that. But I think we’ve had moments where his heart isn’t in it as much as maybe (it could be). He still views himself as a catcher. And we’re trying to explain to him that, ‘Man, you may be a catcher next year, but you could be a starting right fielder.’

“So, we’re just not there, yet. I mean, I understand. It’s just, I don’t think it’s kind of come as maybe as fast as we hoped.”

If the Indians were to acquire Machado, or even the Reds’ Scooter Gennett, it’s also possible that Jason Kipnis could be moved to the outfield, as he was near the end of last season. Or, perhaps Mejia can make the required strides and embrace right field.

If the Indians are to address a need in the outfield without as many candidates as in the controllable reliever market, some creativity might be needed — or, they’ll have to jump on one of the few available external targets.

Ryan Lewis can be reached at rlewis@thebeaconjournal.com. Read the Indians blog at www.ohio.com/indians. Follow him on Twitter at www.twitter.com/RyanLewisABJ and on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/RyanLewisABJ

Re: General Discussion

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:54 am
by Hillbilly
MLB trade deadline: Orioles' Adam Jones, Rangers' Shin-Soo Choo among the best of a weak outfield market

by Matt Snyder @MattSnyderCBS CBS Sports

Jul 5, 2018

Now that it's July, it's time to start thinking about Major League Baseball's trade deadline. Per usual, teams have until July 31 at p.m. ET to make deals without needing to resort to waivers.

As part of our deadline coverage, we'll be previewing the market in a variety of ways -- that includes a positional overview. For now, let's take a look at the potentially available outfielders.

Spoiler: There aren't going to be many good outfielders available this summer, in all likelihood.

Center fielders

The headliner
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Adam Jones BAL • CF • 10
BA.287
R35
HR10
RBI33
SB0

Yeah, so it's not a huge group of available center fielders this trade deadline. It works out fine, though, because not many contenders are looking for a starting center fielder.

The former All-Star, Adam Jones, would be the best available and only sure-fire starter around if the Orioles choose to make him available. He's hitting .287/.311/.436 with 10 homers. His power is down and so are his walks, which were always too low, so his OPS isn't near where a player better than slightly above average should be. He's also lost several steps in center and defensive metrics have him as greatly below average out there. It makes sense, as he turns 33 soon.

Jones hits free agency after this season and will be owed less than half of his $17.3 million salary this season by the time he's traded. Would the Diamondbacks make sense here? He could play center if A.J. Pollock is out or slide to a corner on other days. Just to throw one team out there.

Jones does have 10-and-5 trade veto rights, keep in mind.

Plan B
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Leonys Martin DET • CF • 12
BA.257
R44
HR9
RBI29
SB7

Again, not a great CF market out there for buyers. Leonys Martin is hitting .257/.327/.431 with nine homers, seven stolen bases and excellent defense this season and we know the Tigers will be sellers. He'd be a nice cheap add for someone seeking outfield depth, actually. Alas, he got hurt on Sunday. He'll need to heal quickly for the Tigers to capitalize to the fullest extent.

Worth a call
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Billy Hamilton CIN • CF • 6
BA.213
R44
HR3
RBI19
SB16

Look, it's not working with the bat and he's had more than enough chances in Cincy. It's time for a divorce. He's hitting .213/.295/.297. He's never been close to an average hitter and he's now 27 years old. It's his sixth season. Again, it's just not working here.

Hamilton hits free agency after next season, so maybe a contender who could use a pinch runner and late-inning defensive replacement rolls the dice and then hopes maybe they help him get on base at like a .330 clip next year.

Corner outfielders

The headliner

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Shin-Soo Choo TEX • DH • 17
BA.289
R51
HR16
RBI41
SB3

The Rangers are reportedly willing to eat some of the remaining money on Shin-Soo Choo's deal (there are two years and $42 million left after this season), so that might perk some teams up as Choo is having an excellent season. He recently had a 41-game on-base streak broken and is getting on at a .399 clip this season. That works in the leadoff spot if need be, but it's plays anywhere. He's also racked up 18 doubles and 15 homers. Choo could DH or probably get by at either corner.

Plan B
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Corey Dickerson PIT • LF • 12
BA.303
R35
HR6
RBI33
SB4

Corey Dickerson is awfully hot and cold and he's been cold, but he was an All-Star last season, was outstanding in April and very good in May. He's on a cheap deal this year and under team control for one more year before free agency. Overall, he's at a .303/.382/.449 clip this season, which is above average. He's been good in left field, too.

Worth a call

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Jay Bruce NYM • RF • 19
BA.212
R17
HR3
RBI17
SB2

Obstacles galore here. The Mets signed Bruce to a three-year deal this past offseason, he's hurt, he's north of 30 and hitting .212 with a .613 OPS (72 OPS+). He's also a poor defender.

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Khris Davis OAK • DH • 2
BA.239
R45
HR20
RBI57
SB0

The A's have been red-hot and might not sell, but if they get to that point, perhaps it's time to part ways with Davis. He's now 30 and hits free agency after next season. He seems likely to top 40 homers for the third straight season, so there would be at least a small market for him.

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Derek Dietrich MIA • LF • 32
BA.287
R42
HR11
RBI30
SB1

Dietrich is only making $2.9 million this season and is controlled through 2020, so it's not like the Marlins have to deal him. He is putting together a great season (.287/.346/.459 with 11 homers), so maybe they strike while the iron is hot? He's 28 and might be washed up before they are next ready to compete.

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Alex Gordon KC • LF • 4
BA.247
R22
HR5
RBI15
SB5

The Royals would surely love to get rid of as much of the $20 million due Gordon next season as they can, but it's hard to see anyone giving any value for him. He's hitting .247/.327/.342 after two terrible seasons and is 34 years old.

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Curtis Granderson TOR • LF • 18
BA.248
R31
HR9
RBI27
SB1

The long-time veteran is well-known as an excellent clubhouse guy. He's still getting on base (.356 OBP) and has nine homers. He hits righties well and could either platoon or be a good bench bat.

Re: General Discussion

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:58 am
by Hillbilly
Funny to see Granderson there. My wife was watching a game with me last week -- Keep in mind, she knows that we have acquired a couple former Tigers outfielders in recent years, with Davis and Jackson, and had success with both, which drove her crazy -- But she says, your OF is a little weak, you should pick up Curtis Granderson. What is he doing these days?

I said, sucking, that's what he's doing. It isn't 2012 anymore.

But hell, who knows, maybe she has a point. Might catch lightning in a bottle with him like we did Davis and Jackson.

Re: General Discussion

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:10 pm
by civ ollilavad
Lots of uninteresting choices there. The only one who seems appeal is Choo, I'd take him back. He's still got a lot to offer offensively and defensively too and probably wouldn't cost a lot. I'll give one SS and a good but not stellar pitcher, Civale I suppose.

I have never in my life previously heard of Derek Dietrich but if he is an actual human being who at age 32 is putting pretty good numbers maybe he would be worth trading not much for, too.

Re: General Discussion

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:59 pm
by TFIR
civ ollilavad wrote:Lots of uninteresting choices there. The only one who seems appeal is Choo, I'd take him back. He's still got a lot to offer offensively and defensively too and probably wouldn't cost a lot. I'll give one SS and a good but not stellar pitcher, Civale I suppose.

I have never in my life previously heard of Derek Dietrich but if he is an actual human being who at age 32 is putting pretty good numbers maybe he would be worth trading not much for, too.
Of course Choo is on that disastrous contract so Texas would have to pick a lot of that up.

Derek Dietrich is one of those guys who plays a million positions and is a nice hitter too.