Cleveland Sports Forum

If I were with Toronto I too would be willing to take Plesac or McKenzie off the Indians' hands. I don't think our front office is likely to trade a very cheap very talented starter to just to make Mark Shapiro happy

The Corey Kluber trade and what it taught the Indians — and us — one year later


By Zack Meisel Dec 15, 2020 23
CLEVELAND — Once the Indians and Rangers struck an agreement on their three-player trade, Terry Francona called Corey Kluber.

The manager’s initial message to the franchise’s only two-time Cy Young Award winner? “I’m not sure what to say,” Francona told him on that Sunday afternoon in December, one year ago today.

The two had grown close in seven seasons together. Francona ultimately thanked him for his unparalleled contributions to the organization and assured Kluber he would continue to follow his career and root for him, even though he’d be donning another team’s uniform.

For one of the most decorated pitchers in Cleveland history — a perennial Cy Young Award candidate, a soft-spoken assassin on the mound who squeezed every ounce of juice out of his right arm during the club’s implausible playoff run in 2016, a guy who tied Bob Feller’s team record for strikeouts in a game the night Feller’s widow helped open a new ballpark exhibit celebrating her late husband — it was quite an unceremonious departure. A dressed-up salary dump, completed a few days after the conclusion of the winter meetings. It takes some twisted reading comprehension to qualify that as a storybook ending to a triumphant tenure in Cleveland.

And for as dissatisfied as many Indians fans were with the return for the three-time All-Star — a glove-first, part-time outfielder and an unproven, hard-throwing reliever — no one could have anticipated the trade becoming such a blunder for both sides in 2020.

Kluber logged one inning before a Grade 2 strain of the muscle in the back of his shoulder sidelined him for the duration of the season. Delino DeShields Jr. offered little offensively or on the basepaths and submitted his worst defensive showing since his rookie campaign. His center-field calamity in Game 2 against the Yankees contributed to Cleveland’s swift postseason exit. Emmanuel Clase, meanwhile, was suspended for the entire season after testing positive for performance enhancers.

The three players involved in the trade totaled a whopping 0.1 WAR in 2020.

It’s pretty difficult for both sides to lose a trade. It seems like such a result should require some sort of supernatural hex. The Indians and Rangers hadn’t teamed up on such a debacle since 10-Cent Beer Night.

There is, of course, a bit of hope for Cleveland to, at minimum, salvage something. Clase is only 22 and the Indians control him for six seasons. Before the bold one was popped for Boldenone, an anabolic steroid often used on horses, he threw what Francona described as “100 mph bowling balls.” Clase’s development will determine whether the Indians join the Rangers in the gutter on this deal.

The Indians were never planning to pay Kluber his $17.5 million salary for 2020, but they didn’t want to sever ties with him without receiving something in return. So, they exercised his club option with the intent of trading him. Kluber’s 2019 season was a mess, as he struggled for seven starts before absorbing a line drive to the forearm in Miami in May. A tweaked oblique muscle, suffered during his final rehab tuneup in August, ended his season.

Given the ownership’s financial directives, the front office couldn’t hang onto Kluber and allow him to rebuild his value during the first half of 2020. The pandemic and Kluber’s new injury would have squashed that strategy anyway.

Kluber finished third in the Cy Young balloting in 2018, when he posted a 2.89 ERA across a league-leading 215 innings. His thought, and the Indians’ hope, was that his lessened workload in 2019 — a mere 35 innings — would benefit his arm over the long haul, especially since he tallied the second-highest innings total in the sport over the previous five years.

Now, he has had another year to reset. The prevailing thought around the league seems to be that he’ll wind up with an AL East team. He and his family live outside of Boston, and he has long trained with Eric Cressey, who now serves as the Yankees’ director of player health and performance.

Before the Indians settled on the Rangers’ proposal, the front office engaged in dialogue with several other teams, including the Dodgers, Angels and Padres. They dangled him on the trade front the previous winter, too. It has become a familiar ploy for the Indians to get a sense of the market for their top talent, perhaps even earlier than they would actually be comfortable dealing those players. They listened to offers for Kluber, Trevor Bauer, Mike Clevinger and Francisco Lindor all long before they were (or will likely be) traded.

Revisionist history is impossible to brush aside but, obviously, if the Indians could have a do-over, they would have dealt Kluber a year earlier than they actually did. That’s what makes the Indians’ operation so challenging. They want to thread the needle between immediate contention and long-term sustainability, but that means the front office must pinpoint the absolute perfect timing on trades involving key players, and that requires plenty of foresight and a bit of fortune.

They traded Clevinger over the summer — when he had two and a half years of team control remaining and in the middle of a playoff season — in part because they feared a harsh winter that would favor the buyers, not the sellers. They were correct about that, and maybe it helps their case that Clevinger will now miss the 2021 season after undergoing a second Tommy John surgery. There are still questions, however, about whether they extracted enough value from the Padres. It will take years to answer that.

In Kluber’s absence in 2019, Clevinger and Shane Bieber blossomed into top-of-the-rotation starters, and Zach Plesac and Aaron Civale cemented Cleveland’s pitching factory as the envy of almost every other organization. The constant churning out of capable starters grants the front office flexibility in dealing from a surplus to address its position-player needs.

Kluber was just getting to know his new teammates when the pandemic arrived during spring training. He joked that he’d have to go through another introductory phase once the season restarted. Turns out, he wasn’t around them long, and now it looks like he’ll befriend a new group of teammates in a few months.

The Indians, meanwhile, opted not to tender DeShields a contract for 2021, making him a free agent. His inclusion in the trade never made much sense. Clase could play a pivotal role in Cleveland’s bullpen next season. Just one year later, he’s the last man standing from this cursed trade.

2nd chance for Clase to prove himself as a potential big arm in the bullpen. that's not a lot to get for Kluber, but as it turns out it's more than Texas got.

Clevinger trade package has potential to be of significant value; there are a couple major prospects and a couple lesser prospects, hardly likely that all will succeed, but just might be as good as what we got for Bartolo

The Tribe got Claase and Texas got Kluber for 1 inning and ALL his salary. After Kluber totally sucked for his pathetic 7 starts the year before!

That's the truth of it. Dumped a broken property (they ran him into the ground) and paid $0 for 2020 for him.

Puhlease if that isn't a win what is? If anyone thinks they didn't get enough for a broken down wreck, they don't understand how baseball operates whatsoever.

He was a name and nothing else by 2019 - other GMs aren't that stupid.

Texas has been making bad deals kind of frequently. They just dumped their GM

Where is John Hart these days?

something to do with Atlanta when I took a look, or at least that was last job

Why Terry Francona is still here and what that means for the Indians
By Jason Lloyd Dec 20, 2020 12
Twenty thoughts on Terry Francona.

1. Francona turns 62 in April and is coming off two years of serious health scares. He said Friday during a Zoom call that he felt “pretty good” and he’s trying to lose a little weight. Still, I couldn’t help but wonder … why? Why keep doing this?

2. Francona is one of the top managers in the game. He could certainly land a job in a bigger market with a bigger payroll if he wanted. He has World Series rings and a Hall of Fame resume. He certainly has enough money. So why? Why keep going? After a full life in baseball, why come back and do it all again when Cleveland’s payroll continues to plunge and the opportunity to win is about to get a whole lot more difficult?

3. “As far as what our situation is financially, I care more about tackling challenges with people I respect and care about. That’s what brought me to Cleveland to begin with,” Francona said. “If anything, I feel stronger about being there now than I did before, just because the relationships have grown so much. I care about our organization. I care about the people in it. I want us to be the best we can be. That’s where all my energy goes, and I love doing that.”

4. For all the scorn the Dolans rightfully take most of the time about the payroll, understand this: Francona probably isn’t here if not for the way they run the organization. Mike Chernoff passed on the opportunity to lead his hometown Mets, the team he grew up cheering for as a child, because of the organizational structure in Cleveland. Understand how rare that is, that a franchise this limited in spending can still attract the front-office and managerial talent it has acquired.

5. Francona will be 63 when his deal expires after the 2023 season. Provided he hangs around that long, he will be the longest-tenured manager in team history, surpassing Lou Boudreau. Will he walk away then? Who knows? He isn’t young by today’s manager standards, but he certainly isn’t the oldest in the room. Dusty Baker is 71. Joe Maddon is 66. Tony La Russa is back at 76. Francona’s health will help determine how long he stays at this point, but the fact he is feeling better and ready to do it all over again is a blessing for Indians fans looking for positive news these days.

6. “If my health issues didn’t allow me to come back and do the job correctly, I don’t think I would have,” he said. “I talked to Chris (Antonetti) and Chernie about that during the year, because I don’t think it’s fair to the team or the organization.”

7. Francona is a lifer. It’s in his blood at this point. He reminisced about the good old days of 2019 when he could arrive at the ballpark, strip down to his underwear, put on his flip-flops and prop his feet up on the desk while looking at that night’s matchups while conversing with players.

8. “I know that may not be the case at the beginning of the season, and I miss the heck out of that,” he said. “But hopefully that’ll come sooner rather than later.”

9. One sneaky byproduct of the way the budget-conscious Rays operate is the way they control the costs of their relievers. Spreading the saves around to various arms prevents one reliever from cashing in during arbitration.

10. This is the first time since 2014 the Indians will enter spring training with so much uncertainty at closer. John Axford began that season as the closer before Cody Allen quickly supplanted him. The Indians have never really had a question at closer ever since — until now.

11. James Karinchak certainly seems to be the early favorite to earn and keep the role, but Emmanuel Clase has the type of arm that merits attention, provided his electric stuff wasn’t solely based on performance-enhancing drugs, of course. Since Francona was sort of the pioneer of using his best relievers in high-leverage situations and not necessarily just in the ninth inning, it stands to reason the Indians could go the way of so many teams today that are moving further away from the traditional closer. Francona, however, said he ideally would like to stay close to traditional roles, while leaving himself the flexibility to move guys around if the situation dictates it.

12. “I think in a perfect world, you have a traditional guy that — guys know kind of where they slot in,” he said. “Saying that, I don’t want to force something. … I don’t know that we need to hand out the closer role in December. You don’t just anoint somebody the closer.”

Don't you just love articles that say nothing new?

How many days to pitchers and catchers?

How many days to pitchers and catchers?

Well, I guess it depends....

Hey, Hoynsie: Since Tyler Naquin was recently non-tendered by the Indians, do you think there is any possibility of him returning to the Indians? -- Jim H.


Hey, JIm: I heard when the Indians didn’t tender Naquin a contract on Dec. 2, the chances of him re-signing were slim. I heard recently that more teams have shown interest in Naquin with a couple considering him a center field option.

Read that the Tigers are interested; I posted previously that he's hit pretty well against the Tigers in fact against most Central Division teams, so they may like him more than others

Can they keep threading the needle? Terry Pluto

Updated 5:17 AM; Today 5:17 AM

By Terry Pluto, The Plain Dealer


In a Zoom meeting with the local media, Indians manager Terry Francona talked about his reasons for wanting to remain with the team.

Francona knows the Tribe is in for a massive budget cut, the continuation of what has been happening since the end of the 2018 season. Veterans Mike Clevinger, Brad Hand and Carlos Santana have left the team for financial reasons. Star shortstop Francisco Lindor is likely to follow.




On the surface, it seems the Indians are headed for a losing season – perhaps several losing seasons. They have had eight consecutive winning seasons (five playoff appearances) since Francona was hired in 2013.

“As far as what our situation is financially, I care more about tackling challenges with people I respect and care about,” said Francona. “That’s what brought me to Cleveland to begin with.”

He is talking primarily about team president Chris Antonetti and general manager Mike Chernoff. The Dolan ownership is a significant factor because they allow the front office and Francona to do their jobs.

Chernoff recently turned down a chance to pursue the Mets GM job. He has walked away from other opportunities with different teams over the years. The same for Antonetti.

“Our goal right now is to put a really good team on the field,” said Francona. “Chris (Antonetti) and Chernie (Chernoff) have earned the right for me to be patient while they work through those things.”

BEATING THE ODDS


The Tribe’s payroll peaked at a franchise-high $134 million in 2018, according to Baseball Prospectus. It dropped to $119 million in 2019. For a full 162-game season, it would have been about $85 million in 2020.

Not sure what the final total for 2021 will be, but it looks to be around $60 million or so.

Several other teams are cutting payroll. Did you see how the Tampa Bay Rays didn’t pick up Charlie Morton’s $15 million option for 2021? Morton was one of the keys to the rotation that led the Rays to the World Series (3-1, 2.70 ERA in postseason). Morton signed with Atlanta for the same $15 million that would have kept him in Tampa Bay. It’s not as if the Rays have a wealth of starting pitchers.




Tampa Bay, Oakland and the Tribe have been the best at competing with modest cut-rate budgets in a sport with no salary cap that punishes teams in smaller markets. The A’s and Rays had cheaper payrolls than the Tribe in 2020. All three made the playoffs.

“For the last eight years, we have been very competitive,” said Francona. “Have we gotten to the final prize? No, and that’s disappointing. But we’ve remained extremely competitive, and that’s our goal moving forward.”

MIKE CLEVINGER WITH PADRES
San Diego Padres starting pitcher Mike Clevinger in his last start of the regular season. AP




A LITTLE HISTORY LESSON

As I write this, I have the 2018 Tribe stats in front of me. Following that season was the first big budget cut.

1. They didn’t keep free agent reliever Andrew Miller. He signed a two-year, $22 million deal with St. Louis. With the Cardinals, he is 6-7 with a 4.12 ERA and has battled some injuries.

2. They didn’t keep free-agent reliever Cody Allen, who signed an $8.5 million deal with the Angels. In 2019, he was 0-2 with a 6.25 ERA. He didn’t pitch in 2020.

3. They cut payroll by trading Yan Gomes to Washington for Daniel Johnson and Jefry Rodriguez. In two seasons with the Nationals, Gomes has hit .239 (.726 OPS) with 16 HR in 127 games. He has been a part-time starter. The Indians turned catching over to Roberto Perez, who has been a Gold Glove winner.




4. They shipped first baseman Yonder Alonso to the White Sox. He has been with four teams in two years. Gomes and Alonso were due to make $7 million in 2019 when the Indians traded them.

5. The one decision that hurt was not re-signing Michael Brantley, who signed a two-year, $32 million deal with Houston. The Indians say they couldn’t afford the All-Star outfielder.

6. They traded Corey Kluber and his $15 million salary to Texas for Emmanuel Clase and Delino DeShields after the 2019 season. Kluber pitched one inning in 2020 and hurt his shoulder. He is a free agent.

7. They traded Trevor Bauer to Cincinnati at midseason of 2019. He pitched poorly for the Reds in 2019 (2-5, 6.39 ERA), but was sensational in 2020 (5-4, 1.73 ERA). The Indians received a lot of players in return for Bauer; the key players for right now are Franmil Reyes along with pitching prospects Logan Allen and Scott Moss. Bauer is now a free agent and will not be back with the Reds.




8. The Indians traded Mike Clevinger to San Diego in the middle of the 2020 season. They received six players in return, Josh Naylor and Austin Hedges being on the major-league roster. Some of the prospects are promising. Clevinger hurt his elbow with the Padres and will miss all of 2021 due to Tommy John elbow surgery.

9. They traded Edwin Encarnacion to save some money, but brought Carlos Santana back to Cleveland in that deal after the 2018 season. Yandy Diaz was part of that trade, and I wish the Indians had kept him.

10. We’ll see how Hand and Santana perform this season. Hand has pitched more games than anyone else in the majors since 2016. Second was Bryan Shaw, whom the Indians let go after the 2017 season. Shaw signed a two-year, $20 million deal with Colorado. He had a 5.61 ERA with the Rockies and is now a free agent.

THREADING THE NEEDLE


My point is the front office has a strong track record of knowing when to deal veterans, as this list demonstrates. They’re not perfect. You can second guess a few of the moves, such as not sticking longer with Gio Urshela, but not many.

The Indians don’t want to do a massive rebuild. They want to avoid 100-game losing seasons.

“(Antonetti and Chernoff) have used the words ‘thread the needle,’” said Francona.

He means trading off high-priced veterans, and bringing in prospects from other teams and the minors to keep the team in contention. They will try to do it again with whatever deal they make involving Lindor. I also believe Carlos Carrasco will be traded to add young position players.

That said, the eye of the needle for the Tribe front office keeps getting tighter.




NOT A GOOD SIGN

The Pirates traded Josh Bell to Washington for a pair of underwhelming pitching prospects. Bell is scheduled to make about $6 million in 2021.

In 2019, Bell was an All-Star (37 HR, 116 RBI, .271 (.936 OPS). But in 2020, he batted .226 with 10 HR in the short season. He won’t be a free agent until the end of 2022. He has been up and down a lot in his career, but the 28-year-old switch hitter has power.

The return was shockingly low: Eddy Yean, who pitched in rookie ball in 2019. The other is Wil Crowe, a 26-year-old who was highly regarded early in his career. But he was 0-2 with an 11.88 ERA for Washington into 2020. He also pitched only 10 games (6.17 ERA) in Class AAA.

The Indians actually drafted Crowe twice: out of school (2013, 31st round) and college (2016, 21st round). He returned to South Carolina and became a second-round pick by Washington in 2017. I mention this deal because it underlines how teams dread giving up prospects, even for big leaguers who have been productive.

Lindor is a superior player to Bell, but threading the needle for a good return will be a major challenge for the Tribe.

The longer this goes, the more I get the feeling we will get little in return for Lindor and Carrasco, just essentially salary dumps.

Could be a long year.

seagull - I do think it's likely to be a long year.

See the article in the Minors folder. This organization is loaded in their system and that's the future.

With the Twins and especially White Sox loaded (remember, the White Sox tanked for years to get into this position...oh and the Twins too) i believe this year is a step back to further load up the minors for the next sustained run.

“Our goal right now is to put a really good team on the field,” said Francona. “Chris (Antonetti) and Chernie (Chernoff) have earned the right for me to be patient while they work through those things.”

Says it better than I could.