Cleveland Sports Forum

I know I am biased but other teams seem to get better deals than the Tribe. It seems to me that Sale went to the Red Sox for one possible big piece and 3 other little ones. We would have had to give up probably 2 major leaguers plus little pieces.

Loufla - the landscape is so different this offseason. And our Cleveland Indians and the Cubs are a large reason why.

Look at the Detroit Tigers, Chicago White Sox as an example. They are shedding (Sale is just the first piece) the old guard type of players. Older veterans, slugger types. Detroit wants to shed JD Martinez, and trust me they'd love to shed Miggy but his completely obnoxious contract prevents it.

The Indians and Cubs had some things in common. They had homegrown position players like Lindor, Kipnis, Jose Ramirez be the core of the team - but also they got lucky and turned up young starting pitching under contract. The Cubs as well built with young position players, then added Lester when they were ready.

The Indians and Cubs as well were athletic, good defensively, and able to score runs in many ways. Let's face it, the Indians lineup going into the season...well...we all thought it was subpar. Guess what, we were ALL wrong. The Tribe added cheaper vets Napoli and Rajai yes, but Jose Ramirez and Lindor were huge reasons they scored. And score they did.

Cubs - Javy Baez, Anthony Rizzo (trade), Kris Bryant (homegrown), Addison Russell (young in trade). Very athletic and young again.

People who follow the new CBA know that it is even more punitive to high spending teams. And the new age sabermetrics frowns on signing older guys (i.e. Encarnacion) to any king of long term deal. There is now proof that those deals rarely work. If you need proof that revenue sharing/luxury taxes have almost made a salary cap these days just look at the Yankees. Even they don't want to pay that kind of penalty. The Tigers are tired of doing that, they will cut salary

All of those things together create the reason that the market is absolutely jam packed with both FAs and trade candidate hitters this offseason. Teams want to get younger, more athletic, better defensively (recognize the Tribe here?) and get young players under long term contracts (recognize the Tribe here?). Hey, there is a reason that former Tribe execs are all over MLB right now including the new Twins GM, the Toronto brass etc - even Theo Epstein once worked for the Indians.

Remember - the Cubs not so long ago sucked. Theo tore it down, and gathered/developed young position players. Under cheaper contracts. Then finally added to it with veteran pieces to finish the job (again, sound similar to the Indians doing the same, and adding veteran pieces?)

Bottom line teams have noticed. Defense is now more quantifiable with sabermetrics. We saw it work for our Tribe - good pitching, solid all field hitting (exception of Nap although in situations he really did hit situationally), and vastly improved defense. Chisenhall OUT of the infield where he sucked and into the outfield where he was quite good. And Lindor....well that guy is all world defensively.

Bottom line is that's what now shapes team decisions. The White Sox got what everyone wants now - a great young position player (Moncata), a stud young Syndegard-type pitching prospect almost ready.

Meanwhile the traditional old guard sluggers are marginalized, especially if they are in their 30s.

Oh, and that's the reason that one of those might fall to our Indians at bargain prices. Because it would be a finishing piece to a team that's already built the way ALL teams are trying to go.

Speaking of crashing veteran slugger value - EE and Trumbo prime examples - the Tribe are trying to pull a (last year's) Napoli type pickup:


Edwin Encarnacion - DH - Blue Jays

Marly Rivera of ESPN reports that the Rangers and Indians are both still in talks with free agent slugger Edwin Encarnacion.

The Indians have only emerged as a possibility after Encarnacion's market has been slow to develop, but the Rangers have been a great fit all along. Similar to his time in Toronto, he could potentially split time between first base and designated hitter in Texas.

The big question is how much Encarnacion's camp will be willing to compromise in regard to years and dollars. As Jeff Passan reported early Wednesday morning, Encarnacion's camp is in "wait-and-see" mode as they try to find the right fit.

Little bit of a difference between 48 mill and 10 to 15 mill, Hoynsie. Way to just sneak that correction in at the bottom of an article.

LOL, I heard them comment on MLB Network that an exec. called it $15-20 million for a trip to the WS.

Certainly a different neighborhood.

BTW, this is the last year that a team loses a first rounder when signing a FA. So NO ONE wants to do that at this point.

Bautista and Trumbo are really going to have their value take a hit because of that.

On a side note, starting pitching (especially starting pitching that's young and controllable) has exploded in value in this market. This will never happen, but would like to see what they could get for Bauer, it would definitely be more than you might expect. I figure you can scrape up a #5 starter type, but what kind of hitter could you get?

HB - I will say this about the WS windfall, some of that you might have problems quantifying. I'm thinking that season tickets for next season, for example, will significantly exceed what they were last offseason.

TFIR- Thanks for well thought out reply.
I just thought that Salazar and a few youngsters might have brought us Sale. Trading a good lefty for a good righty and prospects might have made us more versatile.
BTW heard that Sale going from overhead to3/4 release made him a lot better and he threw harder. If you are quite tall and stringy it seems to work. Miller is sort of the same outcome. Wonder if it would work with tall RH throwers as well.

did we pay more for Miller than Sox did for Sale?

Moncada rated No. 1 on the midseason Top 100, and the MLPOY. Kopech No. 93 at midseason. Basabe Red Sox No. 8 prospect. The other guy back farther.
Frazier rated No. 21 on the midseason Top 100, Sheffield No. 69. Heller and Feyiersen both missed out on our Top 30 last winter. Neither made the Yankees' Top 10 [the balance not yet published]

Both packages look rather comparable.

Civ - First, the #1 prospect compared to #21 to me is a pretty huge gap - and Andrew Miller played a huge role in getting us all the way to game 7. We'll see about Sale. On a smaller note, Sale makes more than Miller.

One more note, Andrew Miller's type is completely unique. Brian Kenny likes to interview people and ask them about the concept of "super reliever", if you follow Kenny you know it's a pet concept for him. Interviewees REALLY often answer (and those are managers and GM) that Andrew Miller is a completely unique animal. Top 3-4 reliever in the game who can pitch anytime. Doesn't care and can be completely effective anywhere. Crazy!!

Oh, don't forget that in this deal BOSTON PAID CHICAGO $31 million. Yes, under the radar note there.

They owed Moncada that money and paid the entire amount to Chicago.

Hey TFIR, I agree that we got a good deal for a uniquely terrific underpaid pitcher. I was responding to another post that suggests Tribe always has to overpay and conservatively suggested our deal was no worse.

other teams seem to get better deals than the Tribe. It seems to me that Sale went to the Red Sox for one possible big piece and 3 other little ones. We would have had to give up probably 2 major leaguers plus little pieces.

Gotcha Vic...errr...Civ.

To add on, not a lot of teams have been able to assemble what this front office has been able to do. I credit Antonetti mostly. They have become one of the model teams.

Seemingly more talented teams (Chisox and Tigers) fall by the waste side. They plow through the talent of Toronto and Boston in the playoffs REALLY?

And then are able to bring back the same team, almost completely.

Of course I am not saying they're perfect if someone wants to point that out. Duh. But overall it's gone really well as the + outweighs the -

Kind of cool to see that Forumites still have a tendency to accuse the front office of doing nothing, sitting on hands, overpaying for talent. Sure has been the case in the past: I remember only about 4 or 5 winters ago when they watched every free agent 1B go until all that was left was Casey Kotchman, and we ran out a lineup of about 7 lefties. I was as vocal as anyone suggesting they weren't really making an effort to field a competitive team. But several terrific drafts, development at last of some of our no. 1 prospects and sensible -- sometimes even aggressive -- trades and signings have followed. It's a world out there. In the old world they'd be sitting on their hands and hoping Jesus Aguilar would take over at 1st base. Still small market, still small budget, but they're giving it their all. At last.

Yandy fans, you'll find Joe posted an interview with your guy in the Winter Ball folder. One of his quotes is;


"I am very happy to belong to the Indians, they gave me the opportunity to sign and something I will never forget. I have interacted with players on the team, and I have also received many tips from Latino ballplayers, especially the stellar Francisco Lindor and Carlos Santana ".

Which made me think about the large number of Latino players we have on board. We can field an all Latino team without too many adjustments to the everyday regulars. For example:

C Perez
1b Santana
2b Gonzalez
ss Lindor
3b Urshela
lf Ramirez
cf Almonte
rf Diaz
dh Aguilar
P Carrasco or Salazar

Did not know about the Sale trade involving the extra 30+ Million. That changes my view some. Both the Yankees and the White Sox are taking a chance that the Minor Leaguers work out. Not always the case, that is why I would have had us include a cheap young Major Leaguer like Salazar. A known commodity, That guy ranked # 1 on the Red Sox did strike out at a 60% rate in his ML appearances. Miller performed as advertised in the ML and helped us mucho. Time will tell but to me Sale was worth more than the White Sox got JMHO.