Cleveland Sports Forum

Gettting Austin Meadows and Glasnow in that same deal is the kind of deal is the kind of deal that builds foundations of franchises. TRADES can be the way to avoid ridiculously long rebuilds like in KC. I'm picking on KC here but there are many examples of that mindset.

I would not trade places with a KC fan in a million years. Yes they have a world championship. Then they held on to those guys a bit then dumped them all as they sucked for years on end.

You may think I'm exaggerating but they won in 2015. That means the last 3 seasons have been very trying for that fan base with no relief in sight this season. So easily the lack of entertaining baseball will go 4 full seasons and counting. They go into this season with little hope of anything but maybe .500.

Just heard an interview with Rory McIlroy that made me think of this. He said his goal is to "put himself in good positions as often as possible". He figures if he does that often enough, some of those will pan out. Some things he can't control, the ball bounces and rolls in funny ways on funny days. But just battle to get in position - both from hole to hole and also from round to round and week to week.

It's exactly the same in all sports - put yourself in position. So much happens that is out of your control that it's all you can do. Look at the Houston Astros - if you had said that wildcard Washington would end up winning it all - in 7 games - without winning a home game - you'd be a very rich man if you had been able to bet on THAT possibility happening. Not a single fan would have believed that a month ago.

We got the raw end of coin flips in '97 and '16 both. Can't cry about that - just keep putting yourself in position to be hot (blessed?) at the right time like Washington did. Certainly winning the Central is a doable goal to put us in the Washington position - perhaps against superior teams - but they showed it's the hot team and not necessarily the best team.

To get back to my original point, creative trading is a major way to keep that going. Yes, great drafting and development as well (Plesac, Civale cases in point). Just keep putting yourself in position.

So you think we can win without Lindor?

Me too.

Me 3

seagull wrote:So you think we can win without Lindor?

Me too.

So that's like saying "we can win without Bauer". In a vacuum no.

But we got pieces back in the Bauer trade that enabled us to keep winning. Both short and long term.

So yeah, I think if we get the right pieces back all will be well.

Duh of course I wouldn't like losing that kid!!!! But business is business.

Washington didn't like losing Bryce Harper either. And they got NOTHING back for him. Except the payroll flexibility to go out and sign Patrick Corbin and most likely Rendon this offseason.

TFIR wrote:

seagull wrote:So you think we can win without Lindor?

Me too.

So that's like saying "can we win without Bauer?" during this last season? In a vacuum no.

But we got pieces back in the Bauer trade that enabled us to keep winning. Both short and long term.

So yeah, I think if we get the right pieces back for Lindor all will be well. And we have the right front office to do that. So for those of us having flashbacks decades ago, front offices back then were pretty shoddy things operating on pretty scanty information.

Duh of course I wouldn't like losing that kid!!!! But business is business.

Washington didn't like losing Bryce Harper either. And they got NOTHING back for him. Except the payroll flexibility to go out and sign Patrick Corbin and most likely Rendon this offseason.

One more thing, watch the Rendon signing. The Cleveland Indians can't afford to shell out $300 million for 10 years, and if anything that's just the starting point for Lindor.

Or better yet, maybe they can afford it barely, but the rest of the team would be a joke. I pass. This is business. The store is open, if something great comes this offseason then go for it Cleveland. If not, like Bauer, bide your time.

Not sure I've seen this here where Roberto is not a favorite.

This year's overall Defensive Player of the Year: Indians catcher Roberto Pérez. It's Pérez's first time winning any Wilson Defensive Player of the Year Award, let alone the top honor.
Catcher and Overall Defensive Player of the Year: Roberto Pérez, Indians

Pérez is a Defensive Player of the Year for the first time after leading all MLB players -- not just catchers -- with 29 Defensive Runs Saved. He was also one of the best pitch framers, saving the Indians 12 Runs From Extra Strikes (Statcast's framing metric), fourth best among catchers.

"It means a lot. I have a lot of pride being back there," Pérez said. "To play defense behind an outstanding rotation -- we've got a great pitching staff -- it takes a lot of work and dedication. I put a lot of work in in the cages before the game. I have a great team. I have to give a lot of credit to Sandy Alomar, who has helped me a lot in my career. I'm just proud of myself."


[He and Lindor both won gold gloves, but the Wilson Defensive SS award went to Simmons]

Silver Slugger Awards

FIRST BASE

AL winner: Carlos Santana, Indians (first)

Santana is only getting better with age. The 33-year-old slugger hit .281/.397/.515 for a career-best .911 OPS with a career-high-tying 34 homers in his return to Cleveland after a one-year stint in Philadelphia. Playing at an offense-heavy position, it's not a surprise that this is Santana's first Silver Slugger Award.

actually of course Santana got worse at age 32 with the Phillies, and then bounced back better than ever at 33 with his "home town" team.

Everyone in baseball wants Lindor traded. why should such a terrific talent and high-spirited and popular player be stuck for life in the backwaters of Northern Ohio?


This one is from MLB.COM

5 reasons it makes sense to trade Lindor now

When Francisco Lindor rejected the Indians' extension overtures following the club's run to Game 7 of the World Series in 2016, the countdown clock started ticking on his Tribe tenure. And the alarm might be sounding soon.

The offer Lindor rejected was reportedly in the realm of $100 million. To turn that down at age 23, on the heels of your first full Major League season, takes some serious self-confidence. And it's deceptively easy to forget that, at the time, Lindor, while gifted in the field and consistent at the plate, was not yet the extra-base-hit machine he's become in the time since. Lindor smartly bet on himself, and in 2017, broke out from a power perspective. Now, he's on the very short list of greatest all-around position players in the game.

And he's two seasons away from free agency.

As a native Clevelander, I can feel the agita growing in my gut just by typing that last sentence.

The Indians are unlikely to keep Lindor beyond 2021. Were he to hit the open market today, he would command, at minimum, a $300 million contract … and possibly well north of that. Granted, he'll be entering his age-28 season by the time he is actually a free agent. And between the industry's changed attitude toward aging curves and countless other unknown factors that could happen between now and then, we should leave open the tiniest hint of hope that he spends his entire career in Cleveland.

Again, though, it probably isn't happening. Teams that rank in MLB's lower-tier in attendance, population area and local television rights fees aren't typically in the habit of handing out one of the five largest contracts in the game (what it would likely take to lock up Lindor right now), because it hamstrings a club's effort to build a competitive roster around that one player. And let's remember: The practice of small-market clubs trading superstars before hitting free agency is nothing new. The Twins once traded Johan Santana a year from agency when he was the best pitcher in the game. The Mariners did the same with Ken Griffey Jr. -- then at the peak of his powers -- for the same reason. If Griffey can get traded, Lindor can, too.

The question, then, becomes: When do the Indians trade Lindor so that he doesn't ditch them in free agency and leave them with only memories and Draft pick compensation?

As you've probably noticed, that's already been a hot talking point in this Hot Stove season. MLB.com's Jon Paul Morosi reported this week that multiple executives believe at least Lindor, Red Sox outfielder Mookie Betts or Cubs third baseman Kris Bryant will be moved this offseason.

Lindor is a franchise player, a generational player. And a fun one at that. An organization can go decades without being lucky enough to land a player with his combination of charisma, character and capacity. So no, I can't personally advocate that the Indians trade Lindor this winter. And if pressed, I would guess that they don't trade him this winter, because deals like this are complicated to concoct. (And for what it’s worth, team president of baseball operations Chris Antonetti told reporters at the GM Meetings this week, “My expectation is Frankie will be the shortstop Opening Day next year.”)

But if I strip away personal sentiment and analyze the situation coldly, it's a different conclusion. There are five reasons why the time to deal Lindor is right now.

Let's explore them:

1) The 2020 Indians look like an American League Central contender. But are they really a World Series contender?

Debatable. The rotation strength is, clearly, the Indians' key selling point and, for all we know, could carry them a long way. But with multiple question marks in the lineup and bullpen and the team unlikely to be major players in free agency, it's hard to put this club in the realm of the AL elite.(*) Cleveland won 93 games despite tremendous injury and illness adversity in 2019, but that total was beefed up by playing in the weak AL Central.

*Look, no matter how you feel about the Indians' payroll level in the last year, budgets are real. And this column is operating within the context of the reality the front office faces.

2) A summer 2020 Lindor trade probably isn't happening.

The AL Central is so forgiving that it's difficult to imagine the Indians, as currently constructed, being in total summer sell-off mode and doing a Lindor deal in July, when he can still impact two pennant races for his new club. While the Trevor Bauer trade is evidence that you can buy and sell at the same time, trading a starting pitcher who just frustratingly flung a baseball over the center-field wall after getting pulled from a game is a lot different than trading your stud shortstop and leadoff hitter, in terms of its impact on the clubhouse and on outcomes.

Looking further ahead, a summer 2021 deal would be a total Hail Mary. The Indians would not be in a great position of leverage with only a couple months of club control remaining and Lindor making a big chunk of change in his final year of arbitration.

3) The Mookie market is evidence of the danger of holding Lindor too long.

It is entirely possible that this point gets refuted by reality in the coming weeks. But right now, the strong sentiment in the industry is that the Red Sox are going to have a hard time getting the right package for Betts. Boston's right fielder avoided arbitration last year with a $20 million deal and will likely get a raise in his final round of arbitration before free agency. And even when the trade involves a former MVP who has been worth an average of 8.4 WAR the last four years, teams generally don't want to commit that kind of cash and fork over elite young talent for a one-year rental.

The Indians would be in a similar situation with Lindor one year from now. They need to monitor the Betts market closely and view it as an indicator -- maybe even a warning sign -- of what they're in store for if they don't deal Lindor this winter.

4) Trading Lindor improves the odds of building an elite team.

For 2020, the Indians are stronger with Lindor than without him. Duh. But again, this is not an elite team in the present. And if the budget doesn't allow for the Indians to go out and buy the pieces it would take to build an elite team, maximizing in-house assets is essential.

Identifying trade targets and setting and maintaining a high price are proven strengths of this Indians front office. You can generally and genuinely trust them to make a smart Lindor trade. And when you strip away sentiment and remember the big jump in arbitration price that's coming for Lindor in the next two years, the Indians have a stronger chance of building a true title threat in 2021, '22 and beyond by nailing this deal right now and bringing in high-upside, low-cost young talent that provides greater financial flexibility overall.

This is where the Tampa Bay Rays have a weird advantage over other clubs from small or mid-size markets. They don't tiptoe around sentiment. They rather ruthlessly capitalize on trade values of established talent, because there is a clear understanding -- by the media, fans, etc. -- that their payroll level is what it is and those are the kinds of deals they have to do to win. That's how they managed to build a contender in the AL East with 2019's lowest payroll. The Indians maintain a much higher payroll than the Rays, but that kind of mindset might make sense for them at this juncture.

5) The Dodgers have what the Indians need.

None of the above means a darn thing if you don't have an adequate offer. And to be sure, even in a market light on shortstops (a post-Tommy John Didi Gregorius is the top option available), it's a very short list of contending clubs who could both pay Lindor what he'll be worth in 2020-21 and get the Indians what they need (a package fronted by young, Major League-ready talent) in this trade.

One of those teams is the Yankees. You probably shouldn't let fan sentiment affect front office decision-making. But, uh, you also probably shouldn't trade Lindor to the Yankees.

Another one of those teams is the Dodgers. That's why you keep hearing Lindor's name attached to them in the trade rumors. Because it makes sense. L.A. would be loath to part with infielder Gavin Lux and/or right-hander Dustin May (their top two prospects, per MLB Pipeline), which is exactly why those would be among the first names the Indians ask about. Perhaps you could attach Corey Kluber and his $17.5 million salary to the deal to make this the kind of reset it might take to get the Indians back to the level they reached in 2016-17, before the payroll picture became more cumbersome.

Anyway, I'll let the Indians and Dodgers figure out the details. The point here is just to acknowledge, somberly, that a Lindor deal does make sense.

These conversations are never fun, because we want from sports what we want from life: Constancy. A sense that the good things won't go away.

But they do go away. The dynamics evolve. And they've evolved considerably for the Indians over the past three years. Lindor grew into one of the best players in the sport and wants to be paid accordingly, as is his right. It is highly doubtful that the Indians will be the team to pay him. So at some point, you probably have to trade him. And as much as I hate to admit it, there's a compelling argument that the time is right now.

This is where the Tampa Bay Rays have a weird advantage over other clubs from small or mid-size markets. They don't tiptoe around sentiment. They rather ruthlessly capitalize on trade values of established talent, because there is a clear understanding -- by the media, fans, etc. -- that their payroll level is what it is and those are the kinds of deals they have to do to win. That's how they managed to build a contender in the AL East with 2019's lowest payroll. The Indians maintain a much higher payroll than the Rays, but that kind of mindset might make sense for them at this juncture.

Lindor will be gone.

In the words of Marvelous Mick Mulvaney "Get over it"

I think one advantage that the Rays have in ruthlessly making deals is that they don't really have any fans to turn against them.

MLB.com again features a Lindor Trade story on the site today noting 4 teams that might want to trade for him; but it says that among those 4:

The Reds probably don't have talent we'd want
The Yankees ditto only name they mention is Andujar who has one year before he's a FA
The Phillies likewise "its farm system likely wouldn’t draw much of Cleveland’s attention"
And the Dodgers of whom "Lux and the Dodgers’ No. 2 prospect, right-hander Dustin May, would be difficult to pry away from L.A., but that certainly won’t stop the Indians from asking"

So it looks like these are just daily Dodgers rumors that they're trying to make come real

offseason preview for each time; same as usual about the Indians;

from mlb.com I think or maybe espn.

2019 record: 93-69
2020 World Series odds: 14-1

The Indians' run of three straight division titles ended even as they improved from 91 to 93 wins -- despite Corey Kluber and Carlos Carrasco combining for just 19 starts and Trevor Bauer getting traded at the deadline. Still, a big cloud hangs over the organization: What to do with their superstar shortstop? Francisco Lindor has two seasons of team control remaining until free agency but is eventually looking at a $300 million-plus contract the Indians won't be willing to shell out. They could keep him and try to win the Central, a realistic option if Kluber comes back healthy and Carrasco is at full recovery after his leukemia scare. Or they could trade him now to extract maximum value in return.

The Indians could essentially follow both paths in one mega-deal: trade Lindor and still contend by getting a major-league-ready shortstop in return plus other help. One possibility is a deal involving Corey Seager of the Dodgers. The Indians will also be seeking outfield help after their outfielders hit just .253/.318/.417 in 2019, ranking 23rd in the majors in OPS. Also, Jason Kipnis is a free agent, although Christian Arroyo, the former Giants top prospect acquired from the Rays, may be given a chance at second base. --

And the Dodgers of whom "Lux and the Dodgers’ No. 2 prospect, right-hander Dustin May, would be difficult to pry away from L.A., but that certainly won’t stop the Indians from asking"

I'm not interested in any of the Dodgers pitching prospects. We are fine as far as young hurlers. Verdugo and Lux or don't waste our time.

so today MLB.com is trying to get Lindor [or Betts] to the Mets

why not the Mets?

The Mets have two top shortstop prospects, 18-year-old Ronny Mauricio (Mets No. 1, MLB No. 80) and 21-year-old Andres Gimenez (Mets No. 3, MLB No. 92). They could include one of them in a deal.
Even if the Red Sox and Indians are willing to trade a superstar, it's not going to be for a rebuild. The Red Sox are under plenty of pressure to get back into the postseason, and the Indians have the roster depth to stay on the top end of the top-heavy AL Central. These are teams that still want to win in 2020.

So what can the Mets give them? Well, they have a bunch of movable parts at the Major League level. Players like J.D. Davis, Dominic Smith or Steven Matz aren't headliners but could be useful Major Leaguers within a larger package. The Mets have more of that type of player than some prospect-centric teams linked to Betts and Lindor.

As for the headliners? If the Indians want a controllable big league shortstop to replace Lindor, the Mets can send Amed Rosario. If Smith isn't an enticing enough outfielder for the Red Sox, Brandon Nimmo is an upgrade. And if it really came down to it, the versatile Jeff McNeil would be a great asset for either Cleveland or Boston.

But why would those Mets players work for the Red Sox and Indians?

The Mets have two roster crunches: in the corner infield and corner outfield. Davis, McNeil and Jed Lowrie all play third base; Smith, Nimmo, Davis and McNeil again, and Michael Conforto all play the corner outfield (though Nimmo and Conforto also play center). That's too many players and not enough spots for an NL team with no designated hitter spot up for grabs, especially when several aren't great defenders.

But move a couple of those players to Boston or Cleveland and they're more natural fits. Any of those outfielders could play right field for the Red Sox (sans Betts) or the Indians (with Yasiel Puig a free agent and Franmil Reyes more a DH type). The Indians need a second baseman, but if the Mets traded them Davis they could move Jose Ramirez back to second and play Davis at third. If the Mets sent McNeil to the Sox, as some have suggested, his multi-position ability would help with longtime second baseman Dustin Pedroia's ongoing health concerns.

And one more key factor: Some of those Mets trade chips, Davis and Smith in particular, are strong hitters, but they're bat-first. They're best suited for the AL where they could get DH reps. The Red Sox (J.D. Martinez) and Indians (Reyes) have DHs already, but they could mix and match Davis and Smith at first base or left field, where they both have experience, or third base in Davis’ case. And neither club has an obvious long-term solution at first, giving both players a clear path to playing time in either city.

So what could a deal look like?

For Lindor? The two years of control mean it'd likely take more. Probably Rosario for starters -- a talented 24-year-old shortstop under control until 2024 would at least help mitigate losing Lindor. Plus Davis to help fill in the infield, and an outfielder to play right. The left-handed-hitting Smith could platoon with Reyes, for example. He might not do the trick, but maybe Nimmo would. Rosario, Davis and Nimmo for two years of Lindor? It's worth thinking about.

Maybe the Red Sox and Indians say no. Maybe they want a prospect haul and no combination of the Mets' pieces works. But maybe the Mets can get creative enough.