Cleveland Sports Forum

Rocky Colavito for Harvey Kuenn!

My favorite trade ever ... Eddie Taubensee for Kenny Lofton.

civ ollilavad wrote:I have a friend who cannot shut up about the Norm Cash for Steve Demeter trade.
As a Yankees fan he also recalls the various deals by which we surrendered Nettles and Chambliss for a long list of Charlie Spikeses, Rusty Torreses, John Ellises, Freddy Beenes, Tom Buskeys, etc. etc.

We traded Tommy John, pre prime, and others to get Rocky Colavito, post prime. back.

J.R. wrote:Rocky Colavito for Harvey Kuenn!

As I remember it, power for average

Joe Gordon for Jimmie Dykes

who'd we trade for Tris Speaker? My dad's first sports memory was newspaper headline "Speaker Comes to Cleveland"

[return of Colavito cost us LHP TJ and CF Tommie Agee: maybe a 1960s package equivalent to LHP Sheffield and CF Frazier. Hope that Sheffield doesn't wind up being famous for the first successful "Justus Sheffield surgery"]

Cash?

He's still getting traded all over baseball.

I read Ken's posts, Civ. Hell, I read all posts. It still makes me sick whenever I think of the Phillips trade, whenever I see the next web gem, whenever....oh hell, screw it! Suffice to say that I thought Peralta and Phillips would have been the next best keystone combination in the league at the time.

That article conveniently does not mention that "Spitter" Alomar was a complete bum with the Mets.......

Can't remember who went downhill faster Alomar or Baerga.

Wondering when/if the Indians sign their power hitting 1B this winter, I took a look back at last winter's deals.
The Napoli signing was officially announced on January 5, but the Hoynes article said:
"It's been common knowledge since last month that Napoli and the Tribe had agreed on a one-year, $7 million deal, but some contract language had to be worked out before it was official."

So we're well behind that schedule this winter.

It looks was checking the calendar too for his column this weekend:

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Mike Napoli signed with the Cleveland Indians on Jan. 5, 2016.

It was a long wait for Napoli, who thought he'd receive a multi-year deal. It never materialized, and he signed a $7 million contract that with incentives rose to $10 million.

By the inflated standards of Major League Baseball economics, that was a bargain. He batted .234 (.800 OPS) with 34 HR and 101 RBI. The Indians didn't have an official team captain, but Napoli served that role.

Now 35 and coming off the best season of his 11-year career, Napoli wants a multi-year deal. The original reports were his goal was a three-year contract.

It's doubtful that will happen. Napoli is sitting and waiting, along with Jose Bautista, Edwin Encarnacion and Mark Trumbo. That's four right-handed power bats.

Here's what I hear:

1. The oldest is the 36-year-old Bautista. He batted .234 (.817 OPS) with 22 HR and 69 RBI. He was on the disabled list twice -- toe and knee injuries. In 2015, he pounded 40 homers with 114 RBI. Was 2016 an off-season partly due to injuries, or is age a major factor? I hear very little buzz about Bautista with the Tribe or any other team.

2. At 30, Trumbo is the youngest of the group. He led the majors with 47 HR for the Baltimore Orioles. Overall, the first baseman/outfielder batted .256 (.850 OPS) with 47 HR and 108 RBI. I hear he wants a four-year deal. The two likely destinations: Back to Baltimore or the Colorado Rockies.

3. Encarnacion will be 34 on Jan. 7. He is No. 1 on the Tribe's list when it comes to adding a bat. Of course, that's true for other teams. So far, no team has come close to offering him the four-year, $80 million deal he turned down from the Blue Jays. Encarnacion batted .263 (.886 OPS) with 42 HR and 127 RBI. There is an odd rumor about the Oakland A's bidding for him. I hear the Texas Rangers as a likely destination as the Rangers lost Carlos Beltran (Houston Astros), Ian Desmond (Colorado Rockies) and Mitch Moreland (Boston Red Sox) via free agency.

4. Here is what I hear about Napoli -- nothing. Not even a hint of a decent rumor, other than the Indians want him back on what amounts to a one-year contract.

5. My guess is most teams believe Napoli just had a Halley's Comet-type season, a career year not likely to be repeated. Also hurting him is a .140 average with five HR and 13 RBI in 114 plate appearances after Sept. 1 in the regular season. The slump continued in the postseason, as he batted .179 with 1 HR and 3 RBI in 15 games.

6. That's why my bet right now is Napoli returning to the Indians. He may not have any better offers.

7. But the Indians will probably wait to see what happens with Encarnacion before signing anyone else.

ABOUT THE TRIBE AND DRAFT PICKS

1. The Indians have the No. 25 pick in the 2017 June draft. If they sign a free agent such as Encarnacion, Trumbo or Bautista, they will lose that draft pick. [with his lousy 2016 stats and costing a draft pick, it seems likely Bautista goes home for the year]

2. Lately, teams have been reluctant to sign free agents if a draft pick is lost. That's because those first-round picks have gained far more value in the age of analytics. The Tribe's No. 25 pick is worth at $10 million, and perhaps as much as $20 million -- it depends on the study.

3. A 2014 study by Hardball Times assigned a value of $16 million to the No. 25 pick in the draft. The top five picks were given $54 million. Looking at the story, I think the values are inflated, but obviously most teams think otherwise. It's why some older free agents are having problems getting the offers they want.

4. Let's assume Encarnacion would sign with the Tribe for $50 million over three years. I have no clue if that is the Tribe's offer. I just used $50 million to illustrate a point. Baseball people say you also must figure in the cost of the pick you give up. So let's go with the $16 million estimate for the No. 25 pick. That makes the value $66 million.

5. The history of the No. 25 pick includes MVP Mike Trout, starting pitchers Matt Cain and Matt Garza.

6. The No. 26 pick has a sad history. The best since 2001 has been Jeremy Bonderman, who was 68-81 with a 4.91 ERA. He had injuries later in his career. At one point, he was a pretty good starter, twice winning 14 games.

7. The No. 27 pick features Cy Young winner Rick Porcello. But there are far more misses than hits with these picks in the 20s.

8. The last two times the Tribe drafted in the 20s, they came up with big league players: Lonnie Chisenhall (No. 29 in 2008) and Jeremy Guthrie (No. 22 in 2002). Excellent prospect Bradley Zimmer was No. 21 in 2014.

9. The Indians correctly prize their draft picks. Since Brad Grant took over the scouting department in 2008, the Indians have been finding prospects. They had 14 of his draft picks appear in the majors last season.

10. Some of Grant's best selections: Francisco Lindor, Cody Allen, Jason Kipnis, Tyler Naquin, Roberto Perez, Ryan Merritt and Chisenhall.

11. Grant's picks have also been used in trades. In 2011, first-rounders Drew Pomeranz and Alex White were part of deal that brought Ubaldo Jimenez to the Tribe. Last summer, four prospects were traded to the New York Yankees for Andrew Miller. One of them (Ben Heller) pitched briefly with the Yankees. It's not just the Indians who are hesitating when it comes to signing free agents partly due to the compensation. Other teams are doing the same. It's why several top hitters are still looking for teams.

12. If the Indians re-sign their own free agents -- Napoli and Rajai Davis -- they lose no picks. They also can sign with other teams without the penalty of losing a draft pick. It gets a bit complicated, but it has to do with the free agent not receiving a qualifying offer from his previous team.

13. The last time the Tribe received a compensation pick for losing a free agent was 2014. That was when they lost Jimenez to Baltimore. They received a No. 31 pick in return. Grant took lefty Justus Sheffield, traded this summer to the Yankees in the Miller deal. The 20-year-old lefty was 3-1 with a 1.73 ERA with Class A Tampa after leaving the Tribe.

14. Tribe president Chris Antonetti has not been afraid to trade prospects. Since 2011, he has traded three first-rounders: Clint Frazier, Pomeranz and White. Jimenez helped the Indians win 92 games in 2013 and make the playoffs as a wild card team. Last season, Miller was a key reason the Tribe reached the World Series. The three first-round picks were used in those trades.

15. MLB.com rates Frazier as the Yankees' No. 1 prospect. They rate Sheffield as No. 6. Part of a scouting director's job is to pick players who can be used in trades. That's why draft picks are so valued in modern baseball.

Here's another "Yandy Diaz probably won't make the opening day roster" story this time my Hoynes

CLEVELAND, Ohio - One way or the other, the Indians are going to find a hitter to play first base or DH before the 2017 season starts. They are still talking to the agents for Mike Napoli and Edwin Encarnacion.

There are other free agents hitters on the market, including Jose Bautista, Mark Trumbo, Chris Carter and Adam Lind. The Indians have checked in with them as well. But let's say they don't find this year's version of Napoli. Could Yandy Diaz help fill that role? Could he step in and make the club as a right-handed DH, while playing some third base and the outfield?

"We think about everything," said GM Mike Chernoff, during the winter meetings, when asked about Diaz. "Our focus is to just put the best team out there that we can. We'll see where we are in spring training. "I would imagine Yandy, from where he is, will have opportunities; whether it's to start the season or at some point during the season. Whenever that opportunity is there we hope he'll take advantage of it."

Diaz is hitting .354 (40-for-112) with seven doubles, two homers and 14 RBI for Caracas in Venezuela. His slash line is .352/.433/.491. He's been playing mostly left field and is expected to continue to play for Caracas until early January.

Last season he hit .325 (117-for-360) with 22 doubles, three triples, seven homers and 44 RBI for Class AAA Columbus. He posted a .860 OPS, including a .399 on base percentage. Diaz played four games at second base, 30 at third and 52 in the outfield.

Diaz started the year at Class AA Akron, where hit .286 (24-for-84) with two homers and 14 RBI. "He's a guy who had been a second baseman and moved to third base," said Chernoff. "Last year we moved him to the outfield so he could get some time out there. He has a huge amount of versatility.

"The focus is how does he, especially at his age - he's a little bit advanced in age compared to a typical prospect - get more consistent at each of those positions where he hasn't had a lot of time? He has the versatility to do it, but how does he become a great defender at each of those positions?"

The Indians signed Diaz, 25, after he defected from Cuba. What he does best is hit. He hasn't shown a lot of power, but in three years in the minors he's hit .307 (375-for-1,222) with 18 homers and 151 RBI. He played parts of three seasons in Cuba before defecting.

Diaz, who will be in big league camp for the first time this spring, might not make the club. In fact, it's unlikely. But if he keeps swinging the bat like he has this year, the chance for him to make his big league debut sometime in 2017 is good.

Let's talk: Paul Kinzer, Encarnacion's agent, says he's focused on getting his client a long-term deal. He says he's taking to several teams about it.

That probably does not bode well for the Indians, who would seem to be better served to try and sign Encarnacion, 33, to a shorter-term deal. They would also be giving up their No.1 draft pick, which currently sits at No.25. If Trumbo, Encarnacion and Bautista sign with clubs other than Baltimore and Toronto, the Tribe's placement in the first round would improve, based on the qualifying offers Trumbo, Encarnacion and Bautista received.

Study your options: First baseman Jesus Aguilar, right-hander Austin Adams and recently signed lefty Edwin Escobar will go to spring training with no minor league options remaining. The Indians recently claimed Escobar on waivers from Arizona.

The Indians were awarded a fourth option on utility man Erik Gonzalez, who made his big-league debut with the Indians last season. Gonzalez could have been out of options after last season.
It's good news for the Indians because Gonzalez has a chance to make their club out of spring training. He'll be competing with Michael Martinez, another versatile player.

Manager Terry Francona has been looking for a versatile infielder ever since Michael Martinez was designated for assignment. Erik Gonzalez, fresh from Class AAA Columbus, will get a chance to fill the job.
"Gonzo is a natural shortstop - a very good defender at short," said Chernoff. "Given our major league team (read Francisco Lindor), he's not going to play every day at shortstop."

What Gonzalez can do is play just about every other position on the diamond and do it well. Offensively, he hit .296 (127-for-429) with 31 doubles, 11 homers, 53 RBI at Columbus last season.

Finally: Indians third base prospect Giovanny Urshela was on Colombia's initial roster for the World Baseball Classic. Urshela is hitting .337 (57-for-169) with 16 doubles, three homers and 33 RBI for Zulia in Venezuela this winter.

Now that Cleveland Indians have Edwin Encarnacion, what will they do with him?

on December 22, 2016 at 10:47 PM, updated December 22, 2016 at 11:05 PM

CLEVELAND, Ohio - OK, the Indians broke with tradition and opened their Christmas present early.

Now what do they do with Edwin Encarnacion after they came to terms with him on a three-year deal worth $60 million with an option for a fourth year worth another $20 million along with a $5 million buyout? One more thing, before we get into the details, there is no opt out clause.

It appears Encarnacion came to Cleveland to win, not leave through the back door at the first opportunity.

Here's a suggestion that I'm sure no one has thought about. How about writing Encarnacion's name in the middle of the lineup and leaving him there for about 145 games or so next season? That's how many games Encarnacion has averaged over the last five years.

He brings power as well. Encarnacion, over the last five years, has hit 151 homers with 550 RBI. That's an average of 30 homers and 110 RBI per season.

The Indians found out what that kind of power can do for a lineup deep in talent, versatility and speed. They reached Game 7 of the World Series last season with Mike Napoli filling that role. Napoli set career highs with 34 homers and 101 RBI as the Indians' cleanup hitter, but faded in September and the postseason.

Napoli, like Encarnacion, hit the free agent market this winter. He has yet to sign a contract.


Encarnacion, who turns 34 on Jan. 7, played 75 games at first base and 86 at DH last year for the Blue Jays. He has played 11 years in the big leagues, starting his career with the Reds and spending the last eight years with Toronto.

After getting burned by the free agent signings of Nick Swisher and Michael Bourn in 2013, the Indians said they could no longer play in the free agent market with the big boys. In Encarnacion, however, they are not trying to build a core through free agency; they're complementing a team that is positioned to control the AL Central, and perhaps the American League, for the next several years.

The Indians finished second in the league in runs scored last season. They did so with Jason Kipnis, Francisco Lindor, Carlos Santana and Jose Ramirez having career seasons and an outfield featuring platoons at all three positions. Santana can be a free agent after the 2017 season, but Kipnis is signed through 2019. Ramirez and Lindor are under team control for four and five more years, respectively.

Then there is the prospect of a healthy Michael Brantley rejoining the lineup. Brantley, the Indians' best hitter from 2012-15, played just 11 games last season because of a troublesome right shoulder. The Indians say he'll be ready to play by the time spring training opens on Feb. 12.

How does a lineup like this sound? 2B Kipnis, SS Lindor, LF Brantley, 1B Encarnacion, DH Santana, 3B Ramirez, RF Lonnie Chisenhall, C Yan Gomes and CF Tyler Naquin sound?

The Indians, as they are configured today, are the real deal. They can pitch as well as hit and score. They took the Cubs to seven games in the World Series with a rotation of 21/2 starters - ace Corey Kluber, Josh Tomlin and an injured Trevor Bauer. They are expected to open next season with a healthy rotation of Kluber, Carlos Carrasco (right hand), Danny Salazar (right forearm), Tomlin and Bauer (finger).

Behind the rotation is a bullpen that stood the postseason on its ear. The back end of the pen consists of Andrew Miller, Dan Otero, Bryan Shaw and closer Cody Allen. Manager Terry Francona, who opened a lot of people's eyes with his belief that games can be saved in the sixth and seventh innings as well as the ninth, is back for his fifth season as well.

The Indians, who finished 27th in attendance last season despite winning 94 games and their first AL pennant since 1997, aren't operating like a team counting its pennies. They traded for Miller last July and picked up the estimated $22 million left on his contract. Now they've come to terms with Encarnacion, who turned down a four-year, $80 million deal just before free agency.

Yes, the Indians took advantage of a buyer's market for right-handed free agent power-hitting first basemen. It looks like a good business move. We'll know more in three years, but taking advantage of a good business opportunity still takes commitment from ownership.

The Indians received that from Paul Dolan, who came so close to winning a World Series in November that he'd like another shot at it.

Cleveland Indians win waiting game as they sign Edwin Encarnacion -- Terry Pluto


CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The signing of Edwin Encarnacion is an example of the Cleveland Indians front office playing it smart.

I'd heard the Indians were willing to offer the power hitter a three-year contract.

I had no idea if it would be enough. Encarnacion had turned down a four-year, $80 million offer to stay with the Toronto Blue Jays in November.

That sounded as if Encarnacion and his agent expected to find $100 million on the free-agent market.

Meanwhile, Toronto quickly signed designated hitter Kendrys Morales to a three-year, $33 million deal. That was the end of Encarnacion returning to Toronto.

So he went shopping for a new team. He was the best free agent power hitter available, a guy who hit .263 (.886 OPS) with 42 HR and 127 RBI for the Blue Jays last season.

But suddenly, the huge spending for big bats just stopped.

Meanwhile, the Indians had targeted Encarnacion as the kind of acquisition that could help them return to the World Series.

But they were not going to spring for a four-year deal.

So they kept talking to his agent, and also kept waiting before settling on a three-year, $60 million deal with a fourth-year option for $25 million.

The Indians probably could have signed Mike Napoli to some type of two-year deal. Or they could have settled for someone such as Chris Carter or Adam Lind on a one-year contract.

But they wanted more.

They wanted an impact hitter for the next few seasons. The front office also was armed with extra cash from the Dolan family.

That also can't be underestimated.

No green light from the Dolans, no deal for Encarnacion.

It would have been easy for the Dolans to back off.

They were burned by their last major journey into free agency. Before the 2013 season, they signed Michael Bourn and Nick Swisher to four-year deals. The combined value was $104 million.

The two veterans had only one decent year, then injuries hit. It was disaster for the budget.

But coming within one win of a World Series title convinced the Dolans to make a bold financial move this winter.

RISK AND PROTECTION

Encarnacion has been one of baseball's most consistent hitters.

Over the last three years, he's batted .269 (.905 OPS), averaging 38 HR and 112 RBI.

Over the last five years, he hit at least 34 HR every season. He's averaged 145 games per season in that span.

But he will be 34 on January 7. So there are always issues with age and injuries, although he has been remarkably durable for most of his career.

The age probably did scare away some teams. Others might not have wanted to part with a first-round draft pick as compensation.

The Indians were not going to let that stop them. They will primarily use Encarnacion as a designated hitter, who can also play some first base.

This signing allows the Tribe to keep Carlos Santana out of the cleanup spot. That's important. Santana hit a career-high 34 HR last season partly because he wasn't batting fourth.

Santana tends to hit for more power when he's not trying to hit for power. His normal swing creates enough power on its own.

Napoli took some of the pressure off Santana last season. It was Napoli who batted fourth. Santana even led off in some games.

Now, Encarnacion takes over the middle of the lineup.

The Indians don't talk about this, but the 30-year-old Santana is in the final season of his contract. He'll be paid $12 million in 2017.

It's possible they could lose Santana to free agency after 2017. Encarnacion gives them some protection if that happens.

THE OWNERSHIP STATEMENT

Most of all, this signing screams the Indians are very serious about winning a championship.

They already were the favorites to win the AL Central Division, and now they are in an even stronger position.

It also should silence those who insisted the Dolans would simply pocket the postseason cash and not make any real moves to improve the team.

Encarnacion's deal is the largest in franchise history. It comes after the Indians not only reached the World Series, but have had four consecutive winning seasons.

But it also isn't an outrageous deal.

Team president Chris Antonetti and general manager Mike Chernoff were not about to fall into the same trap that led to the signings of Swisher and Bourn.

They placed a careful, patient bet of a three-year contract on Encarnacion. So far, it has paid off in a wonderful way for the Tribe.