Cleveland Sports Forum

J.R., are you going to allow my post in response to TFIR's comments to stand?

He called me out, and I gave a response noting he had apparently not paid attention to media reports or board history on the topic of "lack of baseball players in Mark Shapiro's historical hierarchy."

Oh, and the duel Mark Shapiro is currently in with KC to avoid the title of "most non winning seasons in all of MLB since 1997?"

I tell you folks, Mark Shapiro needs to get rid of Nick Swisher's contract.

We have $25 million committed to Cabrera and Swisher in 2014.

And another $15 million to Swisher in 2015.

And another $15 million to Swisher in 2016. And if he gets 550 AB's in 2016, we are committed to $17 million to him in 2017.

Travis Hafner noose like team tying numbers.

For those still hoping for post season Indians baseball, the Tribe should try to offload the Swisher contract and just try to find another player who can hit .245 and produce 9 HR's and 30 RBI's the rest of the way in remaining games like Swisher has done in fewer to this point as the All Star Break and the 90 game break of 162 nears.

We'll see how Swisher performs over the course of a season. Hitting better since his semi-DL stay.

last 10 games: 36-7-12-5 2 doubles, 2 homers, 7 walks vs 4 strikeouts. That translates to:
333/442/556/998.

Look at the facts.

civ ollilavad wrote:We'll see how Swisher performs over the course of a season. Hitting better since his semi-DL stay.

last 10 games: 36-7-12-5 2 doubles, 2 homers, 7 walks vs 4 strikeouts. That translates to:
333/442/556/998.

Look at the facts.

Hey, I get that we can all hope for a Swisher performance upside to make the race to the possible post season fun.

TFIR is a math teacher as I recall, and I have a whole sack of improbable equations beginning with "If Detroit goes .500 the rest of the way, what would the Cleveland Indians record need to be from this point in order be in first place at season end?"

"What if Detroit goes slightly over .500"?

"What is the probability that Detroit will go only .500 or slightly over?"

"What is the chance Cleveland will play .560 Baseball or better, the rest of the way?"

It's Swisher's future contract obligations that give me scare for Cleveland Indians Fans. I'd ride him as a player for us for the rest of this season, but I'm more concerned the rest of his contract Shapiro and Antonetti gave him will handicap this franchise as an excuse going forward after all these one year players leave before 2014.

Going to have to rely on someone else but I do not remember that at all. (Omar)

Is the obtuse person on the bump ?

Why are you still posting here ? You really have no one else that will give you the time of day. Right ?

My recollection is that we all loved Omar in '97. Those were the "glory years." Perhaps by '04, he may have lost some support, but I for one was sad to see him leave.

My "equations" would also include the Tribe's chances of getting either one of those wild card slots as well.

A one game playoff would be quite the event!!

I agree Swisher could be trade bait but because Gomes is going to be our everyday catcher and I'd rather have Santana's bat than Swisher but I would not be surprised to see Santana net us a top of the rotation starter. Stay away from Guallardo thought because he is on the PEDS list....

What is Garza's contract status? Sure wish we could extend Kazmir and Masterson. If not trade'em!!!

Where's the PED list?

Saw 25 names on ESPN this morning sea.... No Indians....

That list should be posted in the winter league folder. No surprise.....

Alex Rodriguez, Ryan Braun and others are expected to be suspended by Major League Baseball around All-Star break, according to report




CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Alex Rodriguez, fifth on baseball's all-time home run list with 647, and 2011 National League MVP Ryan Braun are among the players who are expected to be suspended by Major League Baseball, according to an ESPN report.

ESPN's "Outside the Lines" news show reported that sources say Milwaukee Brewers outfielder Braun refused to answer questions during a June 29 meeting with Major League Baseball about his connection to Tony Bosch and the Biogenesis clinic in Miami. A source said New York Yankees third baseman Rodriguez has not been interviewed but a meeting is expected to take place within the week. MLB has interviewed other players linked to the clinic, sources say.

The story by T.J. Quinn and Mike Fish for ESPN.com includes:

Commissioner Bud Selig's office is expected to suspend Braun and Rodriguez, along with as many as 20 players sometime after next week's All-Star break, for their roles in the Biogenesis case, several sources told "Outside the Lines." As OTL reported, MLB started building cases against the players last month after Bosch agreed to cooperate with investigators.
The question is the length of the suspensions.

Sources said the commissioner's office was considering 100-game bans for Braun and Rodriguez, the punishment for a second offense, even though neither player was previously suspended for violating MLB's drug policy.

The argument, one source said, would be that they -- and possibly other players -- committed multiple offenses by receiving performance-enhancing drugs from Bosch and by lying about it.

Rodriguez is on a rehabilitation assignment with the Yankees high-Class A team, the Tampa Yankees. The three-time American League MVP and 14-time all-star has not played for the Yankees this season after having surgery in January to repair a torn left hip labrum.

The Brewers host the Cincinnati Reds tonight. Braun came off the disabled list on Monday. The 2007 NL Rookie of the Year and five-time all-star had been sidelined since June 9 with a bruised right thumb. Braun was batting .304 with nine homers and 36 RBI in 57 games this season going into tonight's game.

From CBS Sports

Picky Indians seek top starter, have talked about Garza, Gallardo
July 9, 2013 12:55 pm ET

The Indians want another ace, and Matt Garza is their sights. (USATSI) The Indians want another ace, and Matt Garza is their sights. (USATSI)

The Indians seek a starting pitcher and have held discussions about Matt Garza and Yovani Gallardo.

It's no surprise the Indians would like to add a starter. The twist is that they are limiting themselves to a top-of-the-rotation type.

The Indians want someone to "pair with ace [All-Star] Justin Masterson'' is the way somone familiar with their thinking put it. If they don't find that special someone, they just might pass in light of the fact their rotation depth isn't a concern at the moment.

It would certainly be interesting in the increasingly unlikely event Cliff Lee became available to see whether his old friends in Cleveland might try to acquire him (the Indians have become bigger spenders, though $25 million a year still seems quite pricey for them). But for now, Garza and Gallardo are the Indians' main and only pitchers of interest.

To date, there's been a significant enough gap in negotiations with the Cubs on Garza and Brewers with Gallardo that nothing's close. The Cubs are seeking multiple good prospects back for Garza [not sure the Indians have multiple good prospects. If Lindor's off the table, which I suppose he is, they can have pretty much anyone/everyone else we have], not really a surprise in a sellers' market. And the Brewers, not acting anxious to trade Gallardo, not surprisingly are currently valueing him based on how he pitched in past years, not his inconsistent recent performance.

Garza and the Cubs have had some discussions now about a new contract, as was reported here Monday, but most outside executives seem to believe he still has a decent chance to be traded. If so, he's the top choice at the moment. Gallardo's stock has been hurt by his rough year, though he has another season to go on his deal (plus an option year after that), meaning he isn't just a rental.

The reason the Indians are being picky over the pitchers is their much improved rotation depth. Corey Kluber (6-5, 4.23) beat the Tigers recently, they're expecting the comebacking Scott Kazmir (4-4, 4.74) to be more consistent in the second half. Zach McAllister (4-5, 3.43) is expected back shortly after the break after being out with a sprained right middle finger.

The Indians also seek bullpen help, but things could change on all fronts depending on how the race looks. The to-date underachieving Tigers have a 3 1/2-game lead on Cleveland and are starting to heat up.

Not much here, but if you'd like to hear some opinions....

2013 Cleveland Indians Roundtable: Previewing rest of the season
Dennis Manoloff, Paul Hoynes, Chris Assenheimer, and Zack Meisel look ahead at the Indians' future and projects where they think they will finish at the end of the season.

http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ss ... dta_1.html

Performance-enhancing drugs should be legalized in pro sports, Olympics says CWRU professor: Bill Livingston

on July 09, 2013 at 5:08 PM, updated July 09, 2013 at 6:59 PM


CLEVELAND, Ohio -- "What's wrong with letting athletes use performance-enhancing drugs?" the bioethics/law professor at Case Western Reserve University wanted to know.

Max Mehlman, 64, bases his arguments about legalizing PEDs on two provisions: A doctor would be supervising the drug regimen and athletes must be informed about them and choose to use them.

"Why is marijuana banned?" he asked. "That's one of my favorites. Marijuana is prohibited, but why is that? It has no physical performance-enhancing effects.

"Dick Pound (the head of the World Anti-Doping Agency,or WADA) and I were debating that. He said the reason is that 'The White House wants us to put it on the prohibited list, in order to fund USADA (the United States Anti-Doping Agency).' It's a political thing."

And Mehlman said: "Caffeine (a stimulant) is on the list. Do you realize if you drank a 16-ounce cup of Starbucks coffee and had two Mountain Dews, you would be over the line on the prohibited list?"


Major League Baseball investigators have connected about 20 players to a Miami-area clinic, Biogenesis of America, at the heart of an ongoing performance-enhancing drug scandal. Among them are Alex Rodriguez and Ryan Braun. Lance Armstrong's reputation went over the cliff when he admitted to blood doping and lavish use of endurance drugs. Codeine-laced cough syrup felled Browns wide receiver Josh Gordon for the first two games of next season, at least according to Gordon.

"There is nothing fundamentally wrong or ethically objectionable to PEDs," Mehlman argued.

Steroids, however, are currently illegal in the U.S. without a doctor's prescription. "If (a substance) is against the rules, then using it is saying, 'You cheat,'" Mehlman conceded. "Sports can make any rule it wants. Just like it's silly for there to be 10 players (counting the designated hitter) in the American League and nine in the National."

Steroid users develop their impressive physiques because, said Mehlman, "Steroids can prevent muscle tears, prevent the muscle sheath from shredding, and that's how the muscles grow."

The current PED ban stems from historical precedence, health concerns and a vague belief that PED use damages "the spirit of the game," Mehlman said.

"I'm not sure what that means," he said. "If you look at competition historically, athletes have always tried everything they possibly can to get better than their competitors."

The sanctity of the records, after lesser players broke those of legends, helped drive baseball's ban on PEDs. Mehlman asked, "How is baseball different than someone who invents a revolutionary technique or gets an advantage with equipment differences, such as the fiberglass pole? We didn't see it become a big deal. Everybody just said, 'It's changed.'"

But the rules specified that vaulting poles could be made from anything.

If you look at competition historically, athletes have always tried everything they possibly can to get better than their competitors.
The Cold War and the American cultural divide of the 1960s heated up the debate about drugs. "Nothing really happened until the war on drugs started in 1968 with President Nixon and then the outrage at the East German government-run doping," said Mehlman.

Most of the East German athletes were doped without their knowledge or consent. The bittersweet joke goes that American swimming coaches supposedly sat together in a restaurant during the Olympics in the 1970s, complaining about how deep were the East German women's voices, all within earshot of the East German team.

Retorted the East German coach, "They came here to swim, not to sing."

Health concerns center on the assertion that PEDs are dangerous. Mehlman said that a blanket indictment lacks supporting evidence.

"I submitted a paper to a journal about cognition-enhancing drugs, such as soldiers take a drug to stay awake for 48 hours in combat," said Mehlman. "In it, I quoted the National Institute on Drug Abuse on liver concerns and bone density effects. When a reviewer asked for support for those statements, I had my research assistant, a medical student, research it. She found nothing. Oral steroids, the corticosteroids, are metabolized in a totally different way than injectable steroids. With injectable ones, your voice will deepen and there will be other effects."

The injury issue brings another question: Why are painkillers, which allow athletes to compete at all, viewed with less condemnation than PEDs, which allow them to get better?

Mehlman conceded PEDs should not be used by minors because anabolic steroids, for example, interfere with physical development in adolescents. But if the pro leagues legalized them, it would be almost impossible to keep them out of the hands of young players trying to emulate those they see on television.

In the future, there will probably be genetic engineering, human cloning, and feats of strength and speed conceived before only in superhero movies. Said Mehlman, "They have weightlifting contests with untested competitors. People say, 'What's the point of that?' But why wouldn't you want to see how much weight a human can lift, not by using a mechanical lifter, but by using whatever diet, extra training and steroids can provide? Can a man lift 600 pounds? Let's find out."

Although bribes were taken and cheaters sometimes were triumphant at the Ancient Olympics, a time when divine beings were believed to meddle frequently in mortal affairs, the 26-mile run that the messenger Pheidippides made from Marathon to Athens to announce the Greek victory in battle over the Persians was celebrated. It cost him his life, but it was an astonishing achievement of human will. Society today still highly values clean athletes.

"But how do we know what that Greek was on?" Mehlman said.

Major League Baseball will seek to suspend the following players for their alleged PED use and connections to Biogenesis of America. One of the players, Washington Nationals pitcher Gio Gonzalez, may be exonerated, as he received only legal substances, ESPN reports.

List of Players Suspected of PED Use, Ties to Biogenesis Clinic

Ryan Braun

Everth Cabrera

Melky Cabrera

Francisco Cervelli

Bartolo Colon

Nelson Cruz

Fautino de los Santos

Gio Gonzalez

Yasmani Grandal

Fernando Martinez

Jesus Montero

Jordan Norberto

Jhonny Peralta

Cesar Puello

Alex Rodriguez