Cleveland Sports Forum

and seven others. Sad for anyone.

I can think of a couple ladies that might not be too sad.

Word coming that Cavs are sending Brendan Knight, John Henson, and a 2nd round pick to Detroit For Andre Drummond.

We get the leagues leading rebounder for nothing. But Drummond is a free agent this summer. Can they resign him?

Also rumor is the Rockets tried to trade for Tristan Thompson but deal fell through.

Pistons To Trade Andre Drummond To Cavaliers
February 6th, 2020 at 1:19pm CST by Dana Gauruder


The Cavaliers are finalizing a trade with the Pistons that will see them acquire center Andre Drummond, a league source tells ESPN’s Adrian Wojnarowski (Twitter link).

According to Kevin O’Connor of The Ringer (via Twitter), Detroit will receive Brandon Knight and John Henson, both of whom are on expiring contracts. Cleveland will also send the Pistons a second-round pick, per O’Connor.

it seems to pay to be an NBA player of nearly any talent level; I took at the "expiring contracts" of the two guys we dealt yesterday and note that

Brandon Knight this year is earning $15,643,730 which brings his career income to just a bit over $80 million. that's quite bit a money when you think of it
John Henson took a cut this year and is making $9,732,396 [they can't round these figures up or down to something with a few 0's?]; career $53.7M.

I can see why kids will sacrifice education to try to fulfill the faraway and unlikely dream of playing in the NBA

Jeff Schudel @jsproinsider
"We consider (Drummond) a long-term play," Altman said. Drummond is 26. He can be a free agent after the current season.

Drummond has a 29 million dollar player option for the 2021 season. He probably has no chance of making that much money if he decides to opt out. Very few teams are under the cap enough to offer him an equivalent offer.

So the odds are that Drummond will opt in. If not, that the team that signs him will want to do a sign and trade to go over their cap and the Cavs will get something.

Great trade for the Cavs !

That Love extension looks worse
and worse everyday!

The Cavs can trade Love any time they want to. A lot of teams want him and they are willing to give up expiring contracts but not draft picks. Cavs want something of value. Ten teams would trade for Love if it was just a salary dump like the Cavs did with Drummond.

Partnow: In our Pistons deadline preview, I asked (hyperbolically for which I was rightly called out in comments) if we’re sure Drummond is good. I’d like to re-pose that question, just in terms of Danny’s framing of “players as good, as young” as Drummond. He’s… fine, but if the asking price is north of $15 million, does he bring much surplus value as a player?

For Cleveland, especially with Thompson likely on his way out, Drummond is good enough that he makes them better, but is he any part of a long-term future? It kind of seems he’s due for a few years of limbo before he reinvents himself as an energy backup big off the bench, a la Dwight Howard this year. Except that Drummond isn’t starting from nearly the same peak as Howard, especially defensively.

At the same time, for the price of a blah second and forfeiting some of the least valuable cap space in recent memory, there are worse gambles than taking a chance that a change of scenery and continuing maturity will bring Drummond’s play to a more consistently high level.

Vecenie: You asked the big question here for Cleveland as to whether this deal means anything. Are they actually planning on paying him? Do they see this as a legitimate acquisition of an All-Star via trade? Or are they more realistic with how Drummond affects winning games?

If they’re planning on paying him, it adjusts everything about their rebuild. They’d go from potentially being pretty flexible here in the coming years, to something much less than that. They’d have about $70 million wrapped up in Drummond, an aging Kevin Love and Larry Nance Jr. long-term. That gives them very little in the way of optionality long-term. I don’t love that if I’m Cleveland.

Leroux: Sam, that leads me to a thought from the Cavs’ perspective: how should they feel about Drummond picking up his option? On one hand, it is a big dollar figure, but space this summer is less valuable and it gives Koby Altman a lot longer to evaluate Drummond’s fit with the franchise as it rebuilds.

Vecenie: You know what, Danny? I actually don’t mind it if I’m Cleveland. At the very least, Drummond is good to have around for Collin Sexton and Darius Garland. Putting them in a strong position to succeed is probably even more important than the opportunity cost here of not doing this deal, rolling cap space into the summer and trying to rent out that cap space by taking on bad contracts to get additional assets.

To be frank, Cleveland’s guards miss a lot of shots. Having the best offensive rebounder in the NBA down there to create second-chance opportunities should help. And let’s be very clear about this, too. Drummond is the best offensive rebounder in the league. He leads the NBA in offensive rebounding rate this season at 15.3 and has finished first in the statistic five times in the last seven years. In general, Detroit has grabbed about four more offensive rebounds per 100 possessions when he’s on the floor versus when he’s off of it. It also fits within the Cavs scheme, as Cleveland is one of the few teams that does legitimately still crash the glass fairly hard.

Now, he’s not exactly an elite roll man, despite his athleticism, but he’s good enough to work with those guys on the perimeter and be a veteran presence to help them develop. He’s also really developed in the last few years as a dribble handoff weapon who can occasionally attack off of the bounce, or more regularly create a play with his passing. This year, he’s been dreadfully turnover prone while overextending those perimeter skills a bit, but I think you could wrangle them into something useful.

Partnow: Given the way the market has broken, I would be mildly surprised if Drummond did not pick up that option. The same factors that led to his trade value being so low will be at play in terms of the demand for his skills in the free-agent market. What kind of deal has to be out there for Drummond to forego nearly $30 million for one season? To put it another way, if he’s even half-decent next year, what’s the floor on his following contract? A few years at the MLE or thereabouts? He’d need something like three years, $60m to come out ahead, and I have a hard time seeing where that kind of offer is coming from now that Atlanta has a long term solution at the five.

Like the two of you, I think I’m perfectly fine if and when he does opt-in for largely the same reasons Danny mentioned.

Vecenie: So, I think that’s right. Drummond is an Excel client, and Jeff Schwartz hasn’t built one of the biggest agencies in the NBA by being dumb. There’s really only one team out there that I think could decide to pay Drummond an amount even resembling $28 million this offseason: Charlotte. It has a relatively uncertain center situation, can easily clear a lot of cap space, and, well, let’s just say that I haven’t exactly been impressed with how the Hornets have operated in free agency in the past. Schwartz will have done his homework on Drummond if they’re interested. And if they’re not, I would bet he opts in.

And in Cleveland, assuming Thompson doesn’t return, there will be plenty of opportunities for him to put up numbers again and basically hold his stock steady heading into the 2021 offseason.

Partnow: Good point there. I was wondering earlier if Drummond’s surliness over being surprised by the trade — despite being publicly on the block from very early in the year — was the fact that Cleveland’s roster will make it hard for him to put up the same numbers, especially in terms of rebounding, so as to maximize his chances of a big enough deal to justify opting out this summer.

Vecenie: That could be true, and I think it’s also just worth taking a second here to discuss why we’re discussing a two-time All-Star as if he’s just some other guy that got traded today and why Detroit felt like it just needed to get him off of the roster. His defense just isn’t consistent enough inside. And on the perimeter? Forget it. He’s definitely a playoff liability in today’s NBA, unfortunately. That was a problem for Detroit and it’s going to be a problem for Cleveland, too, as it tries to build a defensive identity.

Partnow: He’s also been a surprisingly poor rim finisher over his career, which combined with his poor free throw shooting has made him far less efficient a scorer than one would wish for from a dive man.

Vecenie: The fact that he’s a poor finisher inside also can lead to offensive rebounding totals that may or may not be quite as valuable as they look upon first glance, given that a lot of them come on his own relatively easy misses.

Partnow: Funny enough, while by reputation his offensive game might be compared to Howard’s or Capela’s, his offensive profile is actually a lot like… new teammate (for the next two months at least) Tristan Thompson.

Vecenie: I think the theme of today’s trade deadline was basically “guys getting traded that have tools, but haven’t figured out how to reach their fullest potential yet.” I think most people would probably think Andrew Wiggins is the poster child for that. But for me, it’s really Drummond. Whereas Wiggins isn’t really all that close to figuring out what many thought was his immense upside entering the NBA, I actually think Drummond shows many more of those flashes. And that’s what’s maddening about him. There are stretches where he is a good rim protector and then it disappears. Stretches where he is an effective finisher and makes plays with his vision and then he pairs it with periods where he turns it over four times a night and shoots 40 percent.

It’s easy to see why Cleveland could very easily talk itself into making this bet at such a low price. But it’s also very easy to see why Detroit was just done with it and wanted to break clean from the chain.

Overall Evaluation
Partnow: It is weird when a 26-year-old, two-time All-Star without significant injury history gets traded and the reaction is mostly “so what?” But I have a hard time feeling any kind of way about this one. Detroit strongly moves in the direction of a complete rebuild and Cleveland takes a long shot at a very minor price. Both sides got what they wanted, nothing much more to see here.

Leroux: In some ways, that is what intrigues me most about this deal. Instead of a mostly capped-out team deciding Drummond is better than just having some space between the cap and tax, one general manager chose cap space while the other chose Drummond. It is fair to say that Cleveland’s bet is partially on the big man and partially on the diminished utility of cap space this year, though starting to develop a defensive identity could be good for John Beilein and his young players after a sluggish start to his tenure. For the Pistons, getting out of Dodge is less painful because they are in the early stages of a rebuild rather than a few painful years in. There will be pitfalls to avoid this summer but there will be opportunities as well for those front offices with patience, a road map and the ability to change course as warranted.

Vecenie: The league just changed so fast, and Drummond was maybe the guy it left behind the most. He’s tried to adjust with his perimeter offensive game and had stretches where he looked like an All-Star. But his flaws are, simply put, just so drastic in the modern league. He gets exposed guarding on the perimeter because most 6-foot-10, 270-pound monsters would get exposed. Offensively, his lack of shooting ability is just a killer and his lack of elite finishing ability makes him a bit less than what his number would make you believe.

For Detroit, it was just time to end things and move into a different era. For Cleveland, I think it’s a reasonable move for a season and a half. The price is right for a rental. But I just hope the Cavs don’t have grander scale plans than that if he decides to hit free agency this summer, given their current long-term expenditures in their frontcourt.

Final Thoughts: The Cavs’ difficult path back to relevance


By Jason Lloyd 5h ago 17
Twenty-nine thoughts on the Cavs, Andre Drummond, potential lineup help for the Indians and the Browns’ future plans for Odell Beckham Jr. and Kareem Hunt …

1. When LeBron James left Cleveland the first time, the Cavs were left with a roster of broken parts and mismatched pieces. It was the collateral damage of trying so hard to win a championship. They had no draft picks and no hope of winning. Year 2 delivered Kyrie Irving and Tristan Thompson through incredible lottery luck, but they still weren’t interested in winning.

2. This time, the Cavs were supposed to be planning ahead. The organization privately and publicly kept talking about how much better positioned it was to handle James’ departure. The Cavs had this group of 20-somethings, such as Rodney Hood, Larry Nance Jr. and Jordan Clarkson, that would prevent the need to bottom out. They had a lottery pick they refused to trade while James was here that became Collin Sexton, and they signed Kevin Love to that mammoth extension. They were ready this time.

3. And yet, the Cavs have a lower winning percentage in the two years since James left than they had the first time this happened. Their winning percentage the first time was .270 over those first two years. Their winning percentage since the start of last season is .239 entering Sunday’s home game against the Clippers.

4. Andre Drummond might help with that, although it’s still fair to wonder whether teams can win playing big in today’s NBA. As I wrote Friday, the way Drummond fell to the Cavs and the price point at which they obtained him made it worth the flier just to see what happens.

5. Koby Altman wasn’t here to sweep up the debris the first time James left. He arrived in August 2012 after Irving and Thompson had completed their rookie seasons. Altman has taken a different approach from Chris Grant as GM. The Cavs went completely young the first time. They had few productive veterans and little veteran leadership. The locker room often resembled a day care.

6. This time, the Cavs immediately re-signed Love to a monster deal after James left and now Altman has traded for Drummond. Losing Thompson after this season will be a significant blow to the locker room, yet it’s clear the Cavs have no interest now in going down the same path they did the first time. Or the path the Philadelphia 76ers took with “Trust the process.” Rebuilds are hard. They often don’t work. Altman is trying to overhaul most of the roster with young pieces while still holding on to enough veterans to make it all bearable.

7. “I think it’s really hard to go completely young and be noncompetitive,” Altman said. “That’s not what we’re about. I tell our staff and players, ‘Go out there and try to win and let the chips fall where they may.’ There’s a difference in that and a team that is noncompetitive. I do want our guys to develop through competitive, meaningful basketball. It’s why we have kept Kevin and we remain steadfast in his value and what he means to us.”

8. And yet, the Cavs’ winning percentage is lower now than it was the first time they did this. And that group of 20-somethings that was going to leave them in a better position? Only Nance remains. Hood was dealt for a couple of second-round picks last year, and Clarkson was dealt for a couple of second-rounders this year — but the Cavs also had to take on the $9 million owed to Dante Exum next season. So essentially the Cavs paid $9 million, and lost Clarkson, for a pair of second-round picks. They flipped one of those picks for Drummond, who is only 26, but $9 million is an awfully steep price for the type of picks few teams in the league covet.

9. Part of the Cavs’ struggles in putting this back together is out of their hands. After beating the lottery odds so many times during the first rebuild, they haven’t gotten lucky this time around. They haven’t been in position to draft any of the franchise-changing talents such as Zion Williamson, Luka Doncic, Trae Young or Ja Morant the past couple of years. And given how poor this summer’s draft is projected to be, finding that franchise pillar this year seems like long odds, too.

10. Part of this falls on them. John Beilein is not fitting the pro game. While a number of folks around the league thought Beilein was an excellent coach, it just isn’t working to this point and I’m not sure whether it can be salvaged. While Altman’s candidate list last summer consisted of young assistant coaches with G League experience and a history of player development, Dan Gilbert pulled a U-turn and hired Beilein. How long will he last? I’d bet the under.

11. For 15 years, since the 2002-03 season, the Cavs’ vision was LeBron James. That’s it. First, it was tanking to get in position to draft him, then it became about building the roster around him, then after they lost him it was about positioning themselves to get him back and then it was doing whatever was necessary to win a championship with him. And it worked. It all worked. It took 14 years from the time they first tanked for him, but they finally won that title.

12. Now the Cavs are trying to find a new way. In the past 11 seasons that didn’t include James, and this predates Gilbert’s ownership, the Cavs’ winning percentage is .314. Their last winning season without James on the roster was 1998.

13. Altman is the eternal optimist. But the road ahead of the Cavs remains painfully long and difficult — with or without Drummond.


Domingo Santana is expected to sign with the Indians later in the week. (Jennifer Buchanan / USA Today)
14. The Indians could sign Domingo Santana to a contract in the next few days, according to our Zack Meisel. He has monster power and would be a welcome addition to the lineup, even if he is a butcher in the outfield. If Santana and Franmil Reyes can rotate between right field and DH, it will plug at least one hole in an Indians lineup that is starting to look better than you might think.

15. He slugged 30 home runs and had an .875 OPS in 2017 with the Brewers. That season looks like the anomaly in his career, but it was also the last time he was healthy for a full year. Santana was having a monster season last year before an elbow injury sabotaged his second half.

16. The Indians thrive on the margins and excel with picking up guys who fall through the cracks. That appears to be the case with Santana. With Oscar Mercado a fixture in the outfield and Reyes/Santana hopefully handling right field, it leaves just one spot for Jordan Luplow, Jake Bauers, Bradley Zimmer, Tyler Naquin (when he’s ready), Delino DeShields, Greg Allen and Daniel Johnson (when he’s ready). Surely someone from that group will emerge.

17. Terry Francona said last weekend Luplow has earned the right to try to hit right-handers, while I’m curious to see what Bauers looks like this season.

18. Bauers was humbled a bit last season. He hit .226 and carried himself like a .320 hitter. Francona said after last season Bauers needed to learn how to carry the same approach every day. When Bauers had three hits, he wouldn’t be in the batting cage the next day. But if he struck out three times the day before, he was suddenly in the cage the next day. Finding that consistency in his approach could go a long way in helping him find a consistent place in this lineup. The Indians thought enough of him last year to trade for him and give him everyday at-bats. Now 24, he’ll get another opportunity at some point this season.

19. Given their pitching depth, I wondered whether one of the starters who doesn’t make the rotation could be shifted to the bullpen. With Adam Plutko out of options, if the Indians make him the fourth starter, it would seem to leave Aaron Civale and Zach Plesac battling for the fifth spot. Civale seemed to show last year he has better stuff, and Plesac’s athleticism, fearlessness and competitiveness on the mound seem to make him ideal for the pen. But Francona, while acknowledging it’s premature to start talking about rotation/bullpen slots, seemed to squash that during Tribe Fest.

20. “You need to have some starters in Triple A and sometimes you’re doing a kid a disservice by putting him in the bullpen,” Francona said. “Even though he might be pissed you’re sending him down, in the long run, you’re doing what’s right for him.”

21. I had some fun the past few months with a story that involves a number of current (and now former) Cleveland professional athletes. I’ve talked to plenty of people from the Browns, Cavs and Indians with one simple question: “If you could change one thing about your league, what would you change?” I think you’ll enjoy it. Look for it in the next few days.

22. Maybe I’m reading too much into it, but Jimmy Haslam’s tone this week when discussing Odell Beckham Jr. and Kareem Hunt sounded starkly different. Haslam seemed fairly certain Beckham would be on the Browns this fall. When talking about Hunt, he lacked the same conviction.

23. That’s probably the way it should be. Beckham hasn’t done anything illegal, he just made a fool of himself at LSU’s title game and his entire presence can become a distraction to a team. I’d like to see Beckham back on the Browns next season, but I don’t fault the new regime if they feel he isn’t worth the trouble. Haslam said he “absolutely” expects Beckham to return.

24. “Odell is extremely talented. He was hampered by the groin injury,” Haslam said. “Listen, he could have done some things better and we could have done some things better. I think Kevin (Stefanski) is very excited to have Odell on the team. The surgery went well, he is rehabbing and we look forward to having him and being a big, big producer for the team this year.”

25. As for Hunt? Haslam left himself an out.

26. “Kareem knows he has got to be better,” Haslam said after Hunt’s recent traffic stop in Rocky River. “Kevin and Andrew have talked to him about it, and I will just leave it at that. What he did was not acceptable. He has to do better.”

27. Asked whether Hunt would be on the roster next season, Haslam said, “If Kareem can follow the expectations that we have laid out for him.”

28. I will not watch the XFL. I will not change my mind.

29. Pitchers and catchers report Tuesday. Spring is coming. Talk to you next week.

Well with Drummond, TT and Love on the same team, rebounding will not be an issue.

Perimeter defense is the issue with Drummond and Love though.

Makes the games much more interesting !

First game together, this certainly played out:

Cleveland’s guards miss a lot of shots. Having the best offensive rebounder in the NBA down there to create second-chance opportunities should help. And let’s be very clear about this, too. Drummond is the best offensive rebounder in the league

Sexton 4-13, Garland 3-11 [after combining to make 2 shots in the first half] and Drummond 7 OR.

Of course the result was the Cavs' biggest margin of defeat in a home game ever.

Wow, word is John Beilein is going to be leaving as Cavs coach. That was quick.