Cleveland Sports Forum

The bottom line is, we suck and we have sucked for quite awhile now with little hope of truly competing.

You can blame the MLB system as a whole, you can blame the front office, or you can just blame the front office for not figuring out a way to succeed in spite of the odds being heavily stacked against them.

I choose the 3rd option, which isn't as heavy of an indictment as the second option would be, but it doesn't let them off the hook the way the first option would.

Yes it is tough being a small market team in MLB. But the front office has shown very poor judgement in a lot of areas, and IMO they could have done better with what they've had to work with.

I have no idea if a change of ownership would make any difference or not. But if I were Dolan I would certainly consider either selling, or making wholesale changes in the front office. He either needs to find someone who will give him (and the fans) more bang for the buck, or get out of MLB altogether.

I'm surprised we still have a team in Cleveland considering all the circumstances since Dolan bought the team.

The Dolan family is not as good in business dealings as most people believe. They control CABLEVISION which I thought would help with the Tribe.

But from a high price in the 64 dollar range in 2001, they are trading at 15 dollars today. Once a high flyer at best today they are probably looking for a takeover.

Criminy, of course Coco Crisp came to us in the Finley deal....at the age of 22.

He played for the Mark Shapiro led Cleveland Indians at age 22, 23, 24 and 25. Most here likely remember.....and I'm sure Husker does......that Crisp often appeared lost in deciding what to do on the bases and never achieved the base stealing success he should have had with his speed while in Shapiro's organization.

Crisp was often confused on hitting cutoff men as an Indian....all four years......under Mark Shapiro.

It wasn't until Crisp got out of Shapiro's Tribe organization and moved on to Boston and Oakland that he began having the base stealing percentage success of his potential.

It was also under Shapiro's organization lead that Coco Crisp decided he was a home run hitter leading to many warning track outs with runners in scoring position. His later organizations told him to cut that home run swing crap out.

However, as you've noted elsewhere, you believe Coco Crisp did learn to do the steroid juice while playing for Mark Shapiro.

For those who think our people can spot talent I have 2 words for you:

Andy Marte

I swear in the early Spring Training games that I watched, one could tell that we had been stiffed. No field, no hit.

I remember Seagull and I talking about it.

How could the scouts and baseball gurus we have not see it?

Tribe Fan in SC/Cali wrote:Criminy, of course Coco Crisp came to us in the Finley deal....at the age of 22.

He played for the Mark Shapiro led Cleveland Indians at age 22, 23, 24 and 25. Most here likely remember.....and I'm sure Husker does......that Crisp often appeared lost in deciding what to do on the bases and never achieved the base stealing success he should have had with his speed while in Shapiro's organization.

Crisp was often confused on hitting cutoff men as an Indian....all four years......under Mark Shapiro.

It wasn't until Crisp got out of Shapiro's Tribe organization and moved on to Boston and Oakland that he began having the base stealing percentage success of his potential.

It was also under Shapiro's organization lead that Coco Crisp decided he was a home run hitter leading to many warning track outs with runners in scoring position. His later organizations told him to cut that home run swing crap out.

However, as you've noted elsewhere, you believe Coco Crisp did learn to do the steroid juice while playing for Mark Shapiro.

Drunk and petty ! Great combination.

VT, do you think the Minnesota deal was a good deal ? Because I don't.

The 2 players were very comparable.

No, rusty, I'm not passing judgment on that one. I'm just saying that (1) I'm tired of hearing about how much better we should and could have done on the CC deal when there is no evidence for it, and (2) the CC trade situation and the Santana trade situation were not comparable and hence I'm not that interested in which one of those deals was better or worse.

One could easily argue that CC and Santana were similar players, but I never said anything about that one way or the other. I was only talking about the contractual situations. One year left plus contingency on a contract extension is not anything approaching the same as 2.5 months left plus no guarantee of an extension (and in fact, near certainty of there NOT being an extension worked out, as in fact it wasn't--CC went for free agency instead).

I do understand what you are saying. At the same time the Twins should have done much better then the Tribe did. Did not happen.

Cliff Lee was also traded after the Tribe traded him. How did that go ?

Well I think that one IS a similar situation (2 months of a top pitcher in a lost season), esp. if you assume that Lee would not have been willing to re-sign in Cleveland. As for the return, at the moment it doesn't look as good (a pair of players that many here rightly consider to be playing bit roles, plus one still with potential but not yet realized--TJ surgery etc.) vs. essentially one MLB player (Brantley) and one AAA or AAAA player.

Which one looks better in the long run may not yet be known. I don't recall which one I thought looked better at the time. But it's the CC trade that I hear the most bitching about, so that's the one I commented on.

I'm quite happy to other other views & interpretations, as I am obviously no expert--just another fanatic who needs to vent from time to time.

Tribe Fan in SC/Cali wrote:

rusty2 wrote: I guess we have a new bumper sticker for Tribe Fans:



Mark Shapiro trades no worse than Minnesota or KC

Yes, it requires a really big bumper.

Yeah, that's damning with faint praise indeed. I was thinking earlier today that among the many problems the Royals have had over the years is that they have always done a terrible job getting anything useful back when they have traded a star. The Pirates have had similar issues, though I think on a less dramatic level (their issue has always been not having enough to trade, period--not too many guys on the level of Greinke, Damon, or Beltran have come through Pittsburgh since the mid-'90s).

But answering Rusty's quasi-question to me, I actually don't care about those teams too much. As an Indians fan, I'm much more concerned that we're among the best in baseball in making trades than I am satisfied in not being the absolute worst.

Obviously a tough crowd. How can you rate the CC or Lee trade without comparing it to other trades ?

Are we just going to whine about everything or are we trying to be realistic ?

What the hell does I am only interested in this team have to do with it ?

I did not write the following :

rusty2 wrote:

I guess we have a new bumper sticker for Tribe Fans:

Mark Shapiro trades no worse than Minnesota or KC

Yes, it requires a really big bumper.


TFISC wrote it ! Could you not smell the alcohol and the Shapiro penis envy ?

rusty2 wrote:Obviously a tough crowd. How can you rate the CC or Lee trade without comparing it to other trades ?

Are we just going to whine about everything or are we trying to be realistic ?

What the hell does I am only interested in this team have to do with it ?

I did not write the following :

rusty2 wrote:

I guess we have a new bumper sticker for Tribe Fans:

Mark Shapiro trades no worse than Minnesota or KC

Yes, it requires a really big bumper.


TFISC wrote it ! Could you not smell the alcohol and the Shapiro penis envy ?

You lost me at Shapiro penis envy on point or inspiration.

I'll take the Otis stuff just fine. I know you are a Cleveland Fan, and you know that I firmly believe Mark Shapiro, and now Chris Antonetti, are not the best guys available to try to get consistent wins and winning seasons for Cleveland Indians Fans.

I believe it is relevant now to compare and discuss the MLB playing experience of our current Tribe Front Office and Coaching Staff with regard to the Front Office Personnel and Coaching Staffs of teams that have had a little better luck than we have for most of the seasons since Mark Shapiro took over as GM in 2001…including 2012.

I’ll try to keep the post as short as possible and will have some links for anyone who cares to take a step further to check the facts.

The general premise is that we have literally almost no MLB playing experience in our President, GM, Head of Scouting, Head of Player Development, Manager, Pitching Coach and other top coaches.

Teams that have made it to The World Series in the past several seasons, and those that are in the top positions for 2012 playoff contention as of today have much more MLB playing experience sprinkled in those roles.


A further point is that Mark Shapiro has been the architect and leader of The Cleveland Indians since 2001, has hired, placed and managed all those in the current roles and only has two winning seasons and none on the horizon.

Another point to note is that many in the key roles have been in the organization all through the Shapiro era.


According to what I can find, Mark Shapiro played no baseball beyond high school. And I'll note that I was not able to find anything showing he actually played baseball at the Gilman School as he told Baseball America in 2005. Maybe someone else can. Shapiro has been with the organization for 22 years and has been GM or President since 2001.

Chris Antonetti, according to the linked article at cleveland.com, never played a game of baseball after he reached the age of 15. Chris Antonetti has been with the organization 14 years, and in his role as GM since 2010.

http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ss ... st_74.html

Ross Atkins, Director of Player Development, played five seasons with 141 appearances in the Indians minor league system peaking at AA in 1999. He never made MLB and has been with the Indians in a front office role for at least 11 years when he became Assistant Director of Player Development.

John Mirabelli, has been the key player in scouting and drafts for all of the Shapiro tenure as GM and President. I'll note that I had a tough time easily finding out much about his background with a cursory search, but according to baseballreference.com he did not play minor league ball or MLB ball. I think he joined the organization in 1999, and has been in the organization for 14 seasons.

A discussion of the drafts in the Shapiro-Mirabelli reign takes place here daily.

For kicks and giggles, follow this easy link and click on each year since 2001 and glance at the names and see how many of the hundreds drafted under Mark Shapiro anybody but the Minor League Folder folks here might recognize.

http://cleveland.indians.mlb.com/team/d ... p?c_id=cle

This guy makes it easy by just listing the drafted players that have at least had a marginal impact in the Shapiro-Mirabelli draft era:

http://www.clevelanddtr.com/2012/08/08/ ... a-part-35/


Manny Acta never played at the MLB level.

Ruben Niebla, our Pitching Coach, never played at the MLB level.

Steve Smith, our Third Base Coach, never played at the MLB level.


Tom Wiedenauer, our First Base Coach, did have 6 PLATE APPEARANCES at the MLB level.

And Bruce Fields, our Batting Coach managed 123 PLATE APPEARANCES at the MLB level.

We do have Sandy Alomar around, as we once had Eddie Murray and Buck Showalter before they both were gone in the dark of the night. Not sure what any of them do or did.

OK....Of course there have many great people in baseball front offices and field management that did not play at the MLB level. My point is that the paucity of MLB experience in our organization seems unequaled....

and it strikes me as odd and notable since we have reached this point under Mark Shapiro.

Take a quick cursory look around the leagues at some of the current teams in contention, and The Indians pale in comparison with regard to experienced MLB players in key roles:

Texas Rangers have Nolan Ryan in the lead, and Ron Washington as manager. Both MLB players with years of MLB playing credentials.

Chicago White Sox have Ken Williams in the lead, and Robin Ventura as manager. Again, years of MLB playing credentials for both.

Detroit Tigers have years of MLB playing credentials with coaches Tom Brookens, Gene Lamont and Lloyd McLendon.

Oakland A's have former MLB player Billy Beane in the lead, and Bob Melvin with combined years of MLB playing experience.

Tampa Bay Rays have MLB playing experience in coaches George Hendrick (one of my fave all time Indians) and Tom Foley.

The Yankees of course have money...and also sport a former player as manager as they nearly always do....with Joe Girardi.

Washington Nationals have former MLB player Davey Johnson as manager, and a wealth of experience in playing and managing with Bob Boone in Player Development.

The Atlanta Braves have years of MLB playing experience with Roger McDowell as pitching coach, Greg Walker as batting coach and Terry Pendleton as as base coach.....not to mention they have Hank Aaron as VP.

Cincinnati Reds have years of MLB playing experience with Dusty Baker as manager, our Brook Jacoby as batting coach and Billy Hatcher as first base coach.

San Francisco Giants have Dick Tidrow in player development, Dave Righetti as pitching coach, Roberto Kelly as first base coach, and Bruce Bochy with about a decade of MLB playing experience as manager.

The Los Angeles Dodgers have Don Mattingly as Manager, Rick Honeycutt as pitching coach, and Davey Lopes as a base coach.


And we have our guys that Mark Shapiro has recruited and anointed.....AND we have Mark Shapiro.

One more quick interesting link, take a look at the managers for the two teams making The World Series the past several years.

My quick read is that going all the way back to 1989, only threeteams have made it to The World Series without a manager that had Major League Baseball playing time.

That's just 3 managers of 44 who have made it to the World Series since 1989 that did not have MLB experience as a player. Maybe I'm wrong, so feel free to double check me.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wo ... _champions (scroll down to get to the chart)

Not only do we have a manager lacking MLB playing experience, we have an entire organization crafted by Mark Shapiro lacking MLB playing experience.

And we have only had two winning seasons since Mark Shapiro and now also Chris Antonetti have been in key roles, none in the last five seasons, and none on the horizon.



Thanks for playing along....

WOW!

And dont forget we let Oakland grab Jonah Hill.

Ca In Fl

Thanks for that last post. Great minds think alike.

I started a similar post but the research time was not worth it.

I was going down our entire organizational chart and it was uncanny how many in the front office had no major league baseball experience. We have some bright minds with degrees and some smart business men within the organization but they don't seem to be working together as a "team". What we're seeing on the field is just a reflection of what we're seeing from our ownership, management, and scouting teams.

That's not to say there aren't some good baseball minds/managers/coaches out there that had no major league experience but it doesn't appear that we have any of them.