Cleveland Sports Forum

The Cleveland Indians have only a few players on the 40 man roster capable of handling major league baseball. Don't blame the performance of the team on the players or the manager. Put the blame where it really belongs!

Let's take a look at it.

A Cab is an all star SS.

Choo is a capable ML RF.

Brantley is a capable ML CF or LF.

Kipnis is a capable ML 2nd baseman.

Santana is a capable ML C and possibly an adequate first baseman.

Masterson is a capable ML starter.

Pestano is a capable ML set up guy.

Joe Smith is a capable ML set up guy.

Chris Perez is a capable ML closer.

So that is nine including possibly your entire up the middle of the field defense.

Chisenhall might be the answer at 3rd.

Marson is an adequate backup C.

I think Donald could be an adequate ML utility guy.

Left field and first base are waste lands.

All teams have players like Jimenez and Carmona.

Compare this team to Baltimore.

Baltimore has 2 players batting over .274. Adam Jones and Nick Markakis. Adam Jones is a superstar. The rest of the offensive players are average.

Can anyone name 2 pitchers on the Baltimore staff ?

How important is Buck Showalter ?

Uncertain pitching prospects limit hope for Cleveland Indians in 2013: Terry Pluto

Published: Tuesday, September 11, 2012, 6:46 PM Updated: Tuesday, September 11, 2012, 10:21 PM

By Terry Pluto, The Plain Dealer

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Perhaps there has been a time when hardcore Tribe fans have been more discouraged, but I can't remember it.

Then again, I can't remember a Tribe team that was 50-49 and 3 1/2 games out of first place on July 26, and then dropped to last place seven weeks later. Some fans have said this was like a year ago, when the Indians opened at 30-15 and finished 80-82. That Tribe team was 50-67 after quick start.

But the truth of a baseball season is that it's 162 games over six months. When it's over, it's a true measure of what type of team the front office put on the field. Last season, that team was 80-82 with several exciting finishes and was only 5 1/2 games back on Sept. 1.

That Tribe team was 15-12 in August. This team was 5-24, and went into Tuesday with a 59-82 record, worst in the American League and 17 1/2 games out of first place.

I was one of the more pessimistic members of the media, picking them to finish at 76-86.But I never saw this coming. Now that I've seen it, I still can't believe it.

This team is 15-41 since the All-Star break, or 9-33 since beating Detroit ace Justin Verlander on July 26.

But the season doesn't lie. The Indians are certainly a bad team, possibly a last-place team that loses more than 90 games for the third time in the last four years. Making it worse, they are not a team that holds real promise for the immediate future. That's why the fan base is so distressed.

As my friend, Sue, said, "If only we were seeing a lot of young guys who looked like they could do something next year -- but we're not."

She mentioned how the Ubaldo Jimenez trade cost the Tribe prospects Drew Pomeranz and Alex White.

She is in three fantasy baseball leagues, so she knows Pomeranz (1-8, 4.80 ERA) and White (2-8, 5.18) have struggled. White does have a 3.41 ERA in nine starts since the All-Star break.

But those two former Indians seem to represent more hope than the 28-year-old Jimenez, who is 13-19 with a 5.35 ERA since being traded to the Tribe on July 31, 2011. Making it worse, Jimenez is trending the wrong way, 1-7 with a 6.47 ERA in his last 10 starts heading into Tuesday's game at Texas.

The way for a small- or middle-market team such as Cleveland to compete is with pitching. Tampa Bay (3.22) and Oakland (3.39) have the two lowest ERAs in the AL, allowing them to remain in contention. In the NL, Cincinnati (3.43) and Pittsburgh (3.77) are having successful seasons for the same reason.

The Indians are supposedly built on pitching, but have the AL's worst ERA at 4.85.

Yes, it's possible Justin Masterson (11-13, 4.96) and Jimenez can at least become respectable starters, as once was the case in their careers. It's possible that Corey Kluber (1-3, 5.26), Zach McAllister (5-7, 4.31) or Jeanmar Gomez (5-7, 5.33) can put things together to become viable starters. Or Carlos Carrasco makes a full comeback from elbow reconstruction surgery. And yes, there’s still Roberto Hernandez. But how can you count on anything from him?

But it's a pitching staff overloaded with question marks.

No matter what the Indians do with manager Manny Acta or General Manager Chris Antonetti or anyone else in the decision-making positions, huge problems loom with the public.

No matter who is in charge, it's likely All-Star reliever Chris Perez and starting right fielder Shin-Soo Choo will be traded. CEO Paul Dolan is on record saying there will not be any big changes in the payroll. Yes, they can add some players as Travis Hafner, Grady Sizemore and a few other veterans depart, but the Tribe is not about to become major players in the free-agent game. Nor are their top prospects at the upper levels of farm system.

No matter what happens this winter, it will be a long, cold one for the Indians and their fans unless something, somehow lights a spark. Exactly how that happens, I have no clue.

Kinda says it all about this organization, doesn't it?

Not for me it doesn't. They left out something important:

At least we're not a bunch of damn Yankee fans.

"Adequate", "Capable" !?!?!?!?

Is that the best you can do?

I don't think "adequate" or "capable" will quite cut it in the major leagues.

We don't have one dominant force in our lineup.

Choo is about as good as it gets.

Cabrera can't seam to string together one complete season.

Santana has been a disappointment.

The jury is out on Kipnis. I need more than one season to be convinced he has the right stuff.

At least Brantley turned out to be a better major league hitter than LaPorta.

Masterson, Hernandez, Jimenez, et al have had flashes of brilliance but in the end, no consistency.

Chris Perez has been Mr. Consistency. One bright spot on an otherwise disappointing (to say the least) season.

And then we have a CEO that has gone on record as saying this is OK !!!??!?!

WoW !!!!

rusty2 wrote:The Cleveland Indians have only a few players on the 40 man roster capable of handling major league baseball. Don't blame the performance of the team on the players or the manager. Put the blame where it really belongs!

Let's take a look at it.

A Cab is an all star SS.

Choo is a capable ML RF.

Brantley is a capable ML CF or LF.

Kipnis is a capable ML 2nd baseman.

Santana is a capable ML C and possibly an adequate first baseman.

Masterson is a capable ML starter.

Pestano is a capable ML set up guy.

Joe Smith is a capable ML set up guy.

Chris Perez is a capable ML closer.

So that is nine including possibly your entire up the middle of the field defense.

Chisenhall might be the answer at 3rd.

Marson is an adequate backup C.

I think Donald could be an adequate ML utility guy.

Left field and first base are waste lands.

All teams have players like Jimenez and Carmona.

I give Rusty credit for finally putting some personal opinion into his defense of Mark Shapiro and Chris Antonetti.

Although I''ll note I was confused several days ago when I referenced Rusty being a Shapiro supporter or similar, and Rusty typed something like "show me one post of mine where I have said I supported."

Just to right the record of Rusty looping me into support of Manny Acta, I have posted agreeing with CharlieT that no matter how much potential Acta might have, it is tough to keep on a manager after two seasons of 2nd half collapses with the 2nd collapse being historic.

rusty2 wrote:Compare this team to Baltimore.

Baltimore has 2 players batting over .274. Adam Jones and Nick Markakis. Adam Jones is a superstar. The rest of the offensive players are average.

Can anyone name 2 pitchers on the Baltimore staff ?

How important is Buck Showalter ?

Again, a good personal opinion defense post. I thought I might be able to name one pitcher for the Orioles as he played baseball at a school in our California town. I see now he is with Arizona.

And again, Mark Shapiro made the decision to hire Manny Acta.

Tough to accept the premise that Acta is the sole problem when it was Shapiro who said the equivalent of, "of all the guys in baseball, Manny Acta is the guy I want as my manager."

Showalter had been with The Tribe in some nebulous capacity in the last few seasons, correct?

I think Manny Acta was the guy Shapiro had confidence he could close the deal on.

There isn't a manager in baseball that could have taken these players and come out a winner. It is what it is.

joez wrote:There isn't a manager in baseball that could have taken these players and come out a winner. It is what it is.

No matter how many ways you arrange 9 pennies, you still can't come up with a dime.

kenm wrote:I believe and the timeline belies this assumption that the team quit when the front office did nothing at the deadline and everyone from manager on down realized that the organization was not serious about competing because it was obvious to everyone that the team as constructed in July was not good enough.

I accept that hypothesis.

Without calling him into the fray (is this a "fray"?) , I'll note that Loufla wondered about Indian player reaction to the handling of Nick Hagadone and the decision to DQ him.....without payment....after his anger injury to his pitching hand.

Within a window of about two weeks our players saw the organization put Hagadone on an ice float without pay, and then the signing of the .159 hitting Lillibridge as the "silver bullet" for the 2nd half.

I believe there might have been a collective locker room thought of "you've got to be freakin' kidding" with regard to the brain trust moves as the collapse began.

I believe and the timeline belies this assumption...

Definition of BELIE

1 a : to give a false impression of
b : to present an appearance not in agreement with
2 a : to show (something) to be false or wrong
b : to run counter to : contradict

So kenm's comment confuses me.

J.R. wrote:I believe and the timeline belies this assumption...

So kenm's comment confuses me.

The intent was clear, just the same. If kenm types cervix when intending vena cava, then I might be concerned.

Vena Cava Da Vida Baby......