Cleveland Sports Forum

rusty2 wrote: DeRozan will still be a dog at crunch time like he has been.

I actually think DeRozan is a great #2 guy miscast as a superstar. Problem is they don't have a #1 - and Lowry is far from that.

This year they are winning with depth - as you said a lot of smart young pickups (VanVleet and Siakam I believe right out of the G League!).

Rusty was referring to me, TFIR. It’s just splitting hairs but in my opinion Kyrie is an all star but not a superstar. To each his own as far as their definition but to me a superstar is a guy head and shoulders above the rest. A guy who can carry a franchise deep into the playoffs almost on his own. For example when LeBron led the Cavs to the Finals and got swept by Spurs like 10 years ago. Or James Harden in recent years. Or Westbrook last year.

You put Kyrie on that Cavs team and take LBJ off and the don’t even make the playoffs. That was proven after Lebron left.

But again that’s just me, my definition. To each their own.

Was not talking about you (HB) at all. Was talking about anyone that does not think Kyrie is a superstar. Fellow players think that he is a superstar.

Case closed.

Do you have that polling data of NBA players? Sure would like to see that.

Wonder how many of them would put him in the same class as Durant, Lebron, Harden, Greek Freak, Curry.

He’s probably the 4th best PG in league, let alone a superstar among all.

But again, depends on your definition. If a top 15 or 20 guy in league is a superstar in your book then yeah. To me, that’s an all star not superstar.

Believe it or not I think this is an excellent discussion for this reason:

Kyrie is a great test case for what a superstar is. And the levels (or tiers as we call them in fantasy) of superstardom. Look, if it's a question then quantitative data has to be used - what can and can't they do?

To me, Durant and Lebron are in a class by themselves. The reason is that they can do it all. They can get a bucket if you need it at a high level (by the way Kyrie can do that too).

Also Durant and Lebron have shown they can also play championship defense when needed - in fact Durant has become quite the shot blocker! Obviously he can rebound as can Lebron and Lebron's ability to distribute/see the court is incredible. When you look at all the skills a player can have they rank highly on lots of them.

Harden is every bit their equal offensively and is actually under the radar in other areas. The guy rebounds really well and gets a ton of steals so he does play some defense (especially this year now that the whole Houston team does).

For me, it's Lebron and Durant in Tier 1, then Harden in Tier 2 all by himself although now you could make a case Anthony Davis is knocking on the door to be with Harden at this level. I guess I would put him here with Harden.

So that's top 4. Incredibly versatile because of their physical gifts and experience in how to maximize them. And there is no way you could argue those 4 could get traded for anyone besides the top 4.

NOW you get to a crowded tier 3. Ok Curry, Kyrie, Westbrook, Giannis, Lillard (a rusty favorite), maybe Paul George. And you could argue some others into this tier. These guys are great but not top 4 rounded.

So, to me, as HB says it depends on your definition or more precisely where your cutoff is. I certainly wouldn't put Kyrie Irving in the top 4 guys but he is right below that with other stud players.

If tier 3 is superstar, then he is one. If the top 2 tiers are superstar, then he isn't. There's a lot of guys on that cusp (Giannis, AD etc)

To me, Kyrie's physical stature (Curry, Lillard too) will always be a reason he won't crack the top 2 tiers. Doesn't necessarily mean he isn't a superstar depending on your Tier definition and cutoff.

Giannis is a good example here as his freakish athleticism at his size (like Lebron, Durant, A.D.) and versatility points to his path to the top 5 and tier 2. Especially when he gets more of a midrange and even 3 point game.

Back to Kyrie - he does have an intangible clutch gene that counts for him. And to his credit I think he sees himself room for growth that would NOT occur with Lebron on his team or any other guy he'd have to defer to. Brad Stevens knew how to maximize an Isaiah Thomas - so he certainly will be the guy to do that for Kyrie.

Lil Rel Howery Details Kyrie Irving's Initial Reaction to Celtics Trade
SCOTT POLACEK
MARCH 5, 2018

Kyrie Irving was apparently thrilled to leave LeBron James and the Cleveland Cavaliers this past offseason.

Actor Lil Rel Howery appeared on SportsCenter and described the moment when the point guard found out he was traded to the Boston Celtics while they were on set for the movie Uncle Drew, noting Irving "was so happy, man" and even ran out with excitement:



SportsCenter
✔
@SportsCenter
Actor Lil Rel Howery describes the moment Kyrie found out he got traded while on set for 'Uncle Drew': "He was so happy, man."


Thus far, Irving's joy has been justified, as his Celtics lead the three-time defending Eastern Conference champion Cavaliers by seven games in the playoff race.

However, his tune may change if Boston loses to James in the playoffs for the second year in a row.

I think your analysis is fair, TFIR. I originally said top 15 or 20 but after really taking a look at it I would put Kyrie top 12 or so. 3rd tier.

Is that a knock on him? I don't think so. He's a great player. The dude hit a clutch 3 to win the only World Championship for a Cleveland team in my lifetime. I have an autographed basketball of his displayed proudly in my Man Cave. I will always appreciate that.

But to me if you ask me to draft a team he would be the 4th PG on my list. Curry, Westbrook, and Lilliard is all ahead of him for me personally.

I don't know how you can call a guy a "superstar" ... or in other words a star among stars, a guy who stands out above the best ... when he is the 4th best guy at his position and somewhere around 12th best player in league at a time he's in his prime.

But you know what, that is what is fun about sports. Sitting around debating shit like this.

You ask someone my age who is the best right handed hitter they ever saw someone may say Pujols, some may say Manny, some may say Big Hurt, some may say Edgar f'n Martinez. As wrong as they are it's their opinion. So what.

If the forum allowed "liking" a post I'd post one on that post HB

This guy is a great coach. John Beilein !

Everyone Is Going Through Something

MAR 6 2018

Kevin Love, Forward / Cleveland Cavaliers - The Players' Tribune

KEVIN LOVE
FORWARD / CLEVELAND CAVALIERS


On November 5th, right after halftime against the Hawks, I had a panic attack.

It came out of nowhere. I’d never had one before. I didn’t even know if they were real. But it was real — as real a broken hand or a sprained ankle. Since that day, almost everything about the way I think about my mental health has changed.

I’ve never been comfortable sharing much about myself. I turned 29 in September and for pretty much 29 years of my life I have been protective about anything and everything in my inner life. I was comfortable talking about basketball — but that came natural. It was much harder to share personal stuff, and looking back now I know I could have really benefited from having someone to talk to over the years. But I didn’t share — not to my family, not to my best friends, not in public. Today, I’ve realized I need to change that. I want to share some of my thoughts about my panic attack and what’s happened since. If you’re suffering silently like I was, then you know how it can feel like nobody really gets it. Partly, I want to do it for me, but mostly, I want to do it because people don’t talk about mental health enough. And men and boys are probably the farthest behind.

I know it from experience. Growing up, you figure out really quickly how a boy is supposed to act. You learn what it takes to “be a man.” It’s like a playbook: Be strong. Don’t talk about your feelings. Get through it on your own. So for 29 years of my life, I followed that playbook. And look, I’m probably not telling you anything new here. These values about men and toughness are so ordinary that they’re everywhere … and invisible at the same time, surrounding us like air or water. They’re a lot like depression or anxiety in that way.

So for 29 years, I thought about mental health as someone else’s problem. Sure, I knew on some level that some people benefited from asking for help or opening up. I just never thought it was for me. To me, it was form of weakness that could derail my success in sports or make me seem weird or different.


PHOTO BY CHRISTIAN PETERSEN/GETTY IMAGES

Then came the panic attack.

It happened during a game.

It was November 5th, two months and three days after I turned 29. We were at home against the Hawks — 10th game of the season. A perfect storm of things was about to collide. I was stressed about issues I’d been having with my family. I wasn’t sleeping well. On the court, I think the expectations for the season, combined with our 4–5 start, were weighing on me.

I knew something was wrong almost right after tip-off.

I was winded within the first few possessions. That was strange. And my game was just off. I played 15 minutes of the first half and made one basket and two free throws.

After halftime, it all hit the fan. Coach Lue called a timeout in the third quarter. When I got to the bench, I felt my heart racing faster than usual. Then I was having trouble catching my breath. It’s hard to describe, but everything was spinning, like my brain was trying to climb out of my head. The air felt thick and heavy. My mouth was like chalk. I remember our assistant coach yelling something about a defensive set. I nodded, but I didn’t hear much of what he said. By that point, I was freaking out. When I got up to walk out of the huddle, I knew I couldn’t reenter the game — like, literally couldn’t do it physically.

Coach Lue came up to me. I think he could sense something was wrong. I blurted something like, “I’ll be right back,” and I ran back to the locker room. I was running from room to room, like I was looking for something I couldn’t find. Really I was just hoping my heart would stop racing. It was like my body was trying to say to me, You’re about to die. I ended up on the floor in the training room, lying on my back, trying to get enough air to breathe.

The next part was a blur. Someone from the Cavs accompanied me to the Cleveland Clinic. They ran a bunch of tests. Everything seemed to check out, which was a relief. But I remember leaving the hospital thinking, Wait … then what the hell just happened?


PHOTO BY JED JACOBSOHN/THE PLAYERS' TRIBUNE

I was back for our next game against the Bucks two days later. We won, and I had 32. I remember how relieved I was to be back on the court and feeling more like myself. But I distinctly remember being more relieved than anything that nobody had found out why I had left the game against Atlanta. A few people in the organization knew, sure, but most people didn’t and no one had written about it.

A few more days passed. Things were going great on the court, but something was weighing on me.

Why was I so concerned with people finding out?

It was a wake-up call, that moment. I’d thought the hardest part was over after I had the panic attack. It was the opposite. Now I was left wondering why it happened — and why I didn’t want to talk about it.

Call it a stigma or call it fear or insecurity — you can call it a number of things — but what I was worried about wasn’t just my own inner struggles but how difficult it was to talk about them. I didn’t want people to perceive me as somehow less reliable as a teammate, and it all went back to the playbook I’d learned growing up.

This was new territory for me, and it was pretty confusing. But I was certain about one thing: I couldn’t bury what had happened and try to move forward. As much as part of me wanted to, I couldn’t allow myself to dismiss the panic attack and everything underneath it. I didn’t want to have to deal with everything sometime in the future, when it might be worse. I knew that much.

So I did one seemingly little thing that turned out to be a big thing. The Cavs helped me find a therapist, and I set up an appointment. I gotta stop right here and just say: I’m the last person who’d have thought I’d be seeing a therapist. I remember when I was two or three years into the league, a friend asked me why NBA players didn’t see therapists. I scoffed at the idea. No way any of us is gonna talk to someone. I was 20 or 21 years old, and I’d grown up around basketball. And on basketball teams? Nobody talked about what they were struggling with on the inside. I remember thinking, What are my problems? I’m healthy. I play basketball for a living. What do I have to worry about? I’d never heard of any pro athlete talking about mental health, and I didn’t want to be the only one. I didn’t want to look weak. Honestly, I just didn’t think I needed it. It’s like the playbook said — figure it out on your own, like everyone else around me always had.


PHOTO BY JEFF HAYNES/NBAE/GETTY IMAGES

But it’s kind of strange when you think about it. In the NBA, you have trained professionals to fine-tune your life in so many areas. Coaches, trainers and nutritionists have had a presence in my life for years. But none of those people could help me in the way I needed when I was lying on the floor struggling to breathe.

Still, I went to my first appointment with the therapist with some skepticism. I had one foot out the door. But he surprised me. For one thing, basketball wasn’t the main focus. He had a sense that the NBA wasn’t the main reason I was there that day, which turned out to be refreshing. Instead, we talked about a range of non-basketball things, and I realized how many issues come from places that you may not realize until you really look into them. I think it’s easy to assume we know ourselves, but once you peel back the layers it’s amazing how much there is to still discover.

Since then, we’ve met up whenever I was back in town, probably a few times each month. One of the biggest breakthroughs happened one day in December when we got to talking about my Grandma Carol. She was the pillar of our family. Growing up, she lived with us, and in a lot of ways she was like another parent to me and my brother and sister. She was the woman who had a shrine to each of her grandkids in her room — pictures, awards, letters pinned up on the wall. And she was someone with simple values that I admired. It was funny, I once gave her a random pair of new Nikes, and she was so blown away that she called me to say thank you a handful of times over the year that followed.

When I made the NBA, she was getting older, and I didn’t see her as often as I used to. During my sixth year with the T-Wolves, Grandma Carol made plans to visit me in Minnesota for Thanksgiving. Then right before the trip, she was hospitalized for an issue with her arteries. She had to cancel her trip. Then her condition got worse quickly, and she fell into a coma. A few days later, she was gone.

I was devastated for a long time. But I hadn’t really ever talked about it. Telling a stranger about my grandma made me see how much pain it was still causing me. Digging into it, I realized that what hurt most was not being able to say a proper goodbye. I’d never had a chance to really grieve, and I felt terrible that I hadn’t been in better touch with her in her last years. But I had buried those emotions since her passing and said to myself, I have to focus on basketball. I’ll deal with it later. Be a man.

The reason I’m telling you about my grandma isn’t really even about her. I still miss her a ton and I’m probably still grieving in a way, but I wanted to share that story because of how eye-opening it was to talk about it. In the short time I’ve been meeting with the therapist, I’ve seen the power of saying things out loud in a setting like that. And it’s not some magical process. It’s terrifying and awkward and hard, at least in my experience so far. I know you don’t just get rid of problems by talking about them, but I’ve learned that over time maybe you can better understand them and make them more manageable. Look, I’m not saying, Everyone go see a therapist. The biggest lesson for me since November wasn’t about a therapist — it was about confronting the fact that I needed help.


PHOTO BY BRANDON DILL/AP IMAGES

One of the reasons I wanted to write this comes from reading DeMar’s comments last week about depression. I’ve played against DeMar for years, but I never could’ve guessed that he was struggling with anything. It really makes you think about how we are all walking around with experiences and struggles — all kinds of things — and we sometimes think we’re the only ones going through them. The reality is that we probably have a lot in common with what our friends and colleagues and neighbors are dealing with. So I’m not saying everyone should share all their deepest secrets — not everything should be public and it’s every person’s choice. But creating a better environment for talking about mental health … that’s where we need to get to.

Because just by sharing what he shared, DeMar probably helped some people — and maybe a lot more people than we know — feel like they aren’t crazy or weird to be struggling with depression. His comments helped take some power away from that stigma, and I think that’s where the hope is.

I want to make it clear that I don’t have things figured out about all of this. I’m just starting to do the hard work of getting to know myself. For 29 years, I avoided that. Now, I’m trying to be truthful with myself. I’m trying to be good to the people in my life. I’m trying to face the uncomfortable stuff in life while also enjoying, and being grateful for, the good stuff. I’m trying to embrace it all, the good, bad and ugly.

I want to end with something I’m trying to remind myself about these days: Everyone is going through something that we can’t see.

I want to write that again: Everyone is going through something that we can’t see.

The thing is, because we can’t see it, we don’t know who’s going through what and we don’t know when and we don’t always know why. Mental health is an invisible thing, but it touches all of us at some point or another. It’s part of life. Like DeMar said, “You never know what that person is going through.”

Mental health isn’t just an athlete thing. What you do for a living doesn’t have to define who you are. This is an everyone thing. No matter what our circumstances, we’re all carrying around things that hurt — and they can hurt us if we keep them buried inside. Not talking about our inner lives robs us of really getting to know ourselves and robs us of the chance to reach out to others in need. So if you’re reading this and you’re having a hard time, no matter how big or small it seems to you, I want to remind you that you’re not weird or different for sharing what you’re going through.

Just the opposite. It could be the most important thing you do. It was for me.

KEVIN LOVE / SENIOR EDITOR

"Be kind - for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle." Plato

Thanks for the article rusty

Amen. Thank the VA for being there for me these last 9+yrs. I have been in a very dark place and it does feel like what he describes. Thanks Kevin Love for a very personal and we'll thought letter.

Important stuff.

Thanks for sharing the article, rusty.

And thanks too to TFIR and eocmcdoc for their contributions. I am glad to hear good news about the VA's efforts in support of eomcdoc.

Gee that Nance guy is pretty good:


Larry Nance Jr. picked up 13 points, 13 rebounds, four steals and three assists in 37 minutesx in a win vs. Denver on Wednesday.

Tristan Thompson's sprained ankle will cost him roughly two weeks, according to coach Ty Lue, and Nance is off to a torrid start as the Cavs' fill-in center. It's only been two games, but he's averaging a stellar 17.5 points on 60.0% FGs and 83.3% FTs, 14.0 rebounds, 2.0 assists, 3.0 steals and 0.5 turnovers.

LeBron James said his level of play is "probably an all-time high."

It's hard to argue with that. Not only did James score seven of his 39 points in the final minute of Wednesday's win over the Nuggets, but he's averaging 30.0 points, 9.8 assists and 9.7 rebounds since the Cavaliers shook up their roster at the deadline.

He's fourth in the league in points per game, second in the league in assists per game, 17th in rebounds and 21st in steals, and he's yet to miss a single game because he said he wants to lead by example.