Cleveland Sports Forum

Warriors would be foolish to trade YOUNG and affordable Klay Thompson for Lebron. They already have the championship sewn up - making it all the dumber.

And they are not that dumb.

LeBron James vs. Dan Gilbert highlights the absurdity of modern sports

No one in Cleveland would choose the franchise owner over the best player of his generation. But no one has a choice, leaving LeBron with a tough decision.
By Tom Ziller@teamziller Feb 1, 2018, 11:01am EST

LeBron James made peace with Cleveland Cavaliers owner Dan Gilbert only after not having to see his face or deal with him at all for four seasons. It’s worth remembering that when reviewing LeBron’s seminal 2014 Lee Jenkins collab announcing his return to Northeast Ohio and considering the state of things today.

LeBron certainly knew what he was signing up for with Gilbert: He had lived through it for years prior to decamping to South Beach and felt its aftermath in Comic Sans immediately after The Decision. There was no evidence in 2014 that Gilbert had graduated from his status as perhaps one of the three least-likable franchise owners in the NBA. (James Dolan retains the pole position, but a public poll might be closer than you think.) But they say time heals all wounds. The passage of time might have diminished Gilbert’s particular tomfoolery in LeBron’s memory.

Bleacher Report’s Ken Berger reports that Gilbert, who allowed general manager David Griffin’s contract to expire at a critical moment in the LeBron II Cavaliers arc last summer, has taken full control of basketball operations. Berger reports that Gilbert coveted the unprotected Nets pick acquired in the Kyrie Irving deal, pushing that trade through even after Cleveland docs found issues with Isaiah Thomas’ hip. Berger also reports that Gilbert has rode along on college scouting trips, like a game last week to check out top prospects Trae Young and Collin Sexton.

LeBron liked Griffin and tweeted his support after the decision came down. The Cavaliers’ replacement front office — new general manager Koby Altman is mighty young and, Berger says, widely deferential to Gilbert on basketball matters — botched the Kyrie sweepstakes, it would now appear. The Cavaliers are something like underdogs to two Eastern Conference teams heading toward spring.

Oh, and LeBron is a free agent in July. Rumors persist that he will consider leaving Cleveland four years after he told the world this:

I always believed that I’d return to Cleveland and finish my career there. I just didn’t know when. After the season, free agency wasn’t even a thought. But I have two boys and my wife, Savannah, is pregnant with a girl. I started thinking about what it would be like to raise my family in my hometown. I looked at other teams, but I wasn’t going to leave Miami for anywhere except Cleveland. The more time passed, the more it felt right. This is what makes me happy.

How did LeBron go from that to back in the free-agent mix in four years? Two words: Dan Gilbert.

This situation gets at the absurdity of modern sports in an interesting way. Not a single soul in Cleveland would, given the choice to keep one and lose the other, pick Gilbert over James. LeBron wants to raise his young family in Northeast Ohio. He wants to compete for titles with the Cavaliers. And Dan freaking Gilbert is making it so hard that LeBron, the best player of his generation and a top-three player in the history of basketball, might give up those dreams just to get away from him.

But because Gilbert had the capital to buy the Cavaliers off Gordon Gund in 2005, the people of Cleveland don’t have a choice. Gilbert stays, and perhaps LeBron goes ... again.

Contrary to the opinions of some, Gilbert is not responsible for LeBron leaving in 2010. The franchise was fairly stable at the time, and while the supporting cast was consistently undermatched, it wasn’t due to thrift or chaos. LeBron wanted to win titles, and Cleveland was not in a place to do that like Miami had been after retaining Dwyane Wade and landing Chris Bosh.

But this time, if LeBron leaves after that love letter to Ohio, after bringing a championship to long-suffering Cleveland, after witnessing the breakup of an Eastern hegemon (while strengthening a top rival!), it’s on Gilbert. Cleveland doesn’t get a choice in this battle, but James does have a choice. Reminded of Gilbert’s particular tomfoolery — watching it in full bloom, really — LeBron is well-justified to flee.

That doesn’t mean LeBron will escape critique, sophisticated or otherwise, should he leave. Sure, he ended the Cleveland curse. That doesn’t make his jersey any less flammable. While the world is slowly moving toward a liberated fandom presaged by the vanguard a decade ago, partisan sports team preference remains as strong as ever among most. The Cavaliers’ fandom, if given a vote, would bestow LeBron a landslide victory over Gilbert that would make dictators jealous. But if LeBron bows out, a large section of that same fandom will boo him ’til their voice boxes crack.

As with so many things in sports, try to rationalize it at your own peril.

TFIR wrote:Warriors would be foolish to trade YOUNG and affordable Klay Thompson for Lebron. They already have the championship sewn up - making it all the dumber.

And they are not that dumb.

One crucial injury (Durant, Curry or Green) could change everything. Warriors could get beat this year when healthy.

The writer above is a jackass.

A good deal of Cavs fans would keep Gilbert over LeBron. Matter of fact they would love it if Gilbert bought all of their sports franchises.

Lebron came home because of Dan Gilberts deep pockets and not despite of him.

Any writer that says the Cavs lost the Kyrie sweepstakes is stupid. Where were you when the trade was made ? Teams do not get equal value when trading a superstar. Chris Paul, Blake Griffin, Paul George.

Most writers did not even know that Kyrie was a superstar.

To blame Gilbert for LeBron being a little spoiled brat mommys boy is hilarious.

Agree on all those rusty. The only thing I do agree with the guy on is when he said Lebron didn't leave because of Gilbert.

And besides, I believe it's in the franchise's and Lebron's BOTH best interests to move forward without him now. The situation there has hit a wall with a roster that isn't sustainable or effective.

And now to something completely different - the Pistons were interested in Kevin Love if Griffin hadn't happened.

Speaking of Blake Griffin and the inner workings of trades:

NBA CROSSOVER

Inside the Pistons' Pursuit of Blake Griffin

The Pistons landed Blake Griffin in a blackbuster deal after weeks of entertaining trades. The Crossover brings you inside their pursuit of the former All-Star.

By JAKE FISCHER January 31, 2018

The Detroit Pistons were already deep in researching Blake Griffin when news broke that Kemba Walker was potentially available for trade on Jan. 19. Detroit, long curious about opportunities to upgrade its roster at point guard, mulled pursuing Walker and forming a potential UConn tandem with Andre Drummond. The Pistons stood in a precarious position at the time, stuck in the middle of what became an eight–game losing streak after a seven-game drought in November curtailed their 14-6 start.

Detroit clearly is not the East contender that appeared possible after a feisty postseason clash with the Cavaliers in 2016. Their two regular–season skids aside, the Pistons felt that adding a true star, whether at the cost of Drummond or Reggie Jackson, could propel their roster back into the thick of the conference’s playoff discussion. They explored a bevy of trades for Drummond this summer, nearly agreeing to a swap with the Kings. The Raptors called dangling Jonas Valanciunas and the Suns at least feigned interest in exchanging a package involving Eric Bledsoe and the No. 4 pick in June’s draft. Detroit circled back to Bledsoe in November, coming within inches of swapping Jackson for the disgruntled Bledsoe. The proposed three-team deal with New Orleans fell through.

By default, Jackson and Drummond essentially grew cemented as Detroit mainstays, and the Pistons geared up for this February trade deadline motivated to aggressively add wing depth, league sources said. Pistons brass toggled back and forth between drafting Stanley Johnson and Devin Booker at No. 8 in 2015, and also outright chose Luke Kennard over Donovan Mitchell at No. 12 last June. And while Detroit remains optimistic about Kennard—the rookie is shooting 42.6% from three—Johnson has yet to establish a clear offensive role and initial conversations proved his rookie salary, with one year remaining after this season, to be a valuable trade chip in acquiring a more established perimeter presence.

Detroit looked into Danny Green, Jordan Clarkson, Tyreke Evans, Rodney Hood and Courtney Lee, according to league sources. Orlando called offering a package of Evan Fournier and Elfrid Payton for a deal centered around Kennard, but that was a non-starter for the Pistons. All these preliminary conversations and prep work made one thing clear to Detroit. "It's becoming a wing league, and not many teams are willing to move those players,” said one team source. “We were willing to give up ours."

So the Pistons focused on a package of Avery Bradley and Tobias Harris for Griffin, beginning roughly two weeks before Detroit finalized the deal that landed the All-Star forward in the Motor City. Only Stan Van Gundy, general manager Jeff Bower and three other basketball personnel were briefed on the discussions with the Clippers. That group analyzed Griffin film dating back to his MVP-caliber season in 2013–14, digesting how his game has transitioned from all athleticism and power to include more finesse and shooting, attempting to envision his fit alongside their incumbent All-Star big in Drummond.

“The last six or seven days is really when it started to take shape,” Bower said during the team’s introductory press conference Wednesday afternoon.


The Pistons and Clippers uniformly worked in quiet, with Detroit under the impression only president of basketball operations Lawrence Frank and general manager Michael Winger had knowledge of the initial talks. Head coach Doc Rivers only became aware of the deal when the teams reached an agreement on Sunday, with every detail settled but the first-round pick protections, one league source said.

For Detroit, the deal needed to be consummated well in advance of the trade deadline. Including Tuesday night’s win over the Cleveland Cavaliers, eight of the team’s nine games before the All-Star break are at home. “It’s time to make a run now,” said one team source. If the Pistons failed to close on Griffin, Detroit was prepared to turn its attention to Kevin Love.

The Pistons will continue to listen for opportunities to add to the wing. Detroit knows it must be frugal in how it shapes its roster around the massive contracts Griffin and Drummond hold for the next half decade. Griffin—along with Willie Reed and Brice Johnson—was introduced Wednesday afternoon and will be available to debut against the Grizzlies on Thursday evening. A clear path to the playoffs has emerged. How the Pistons close the regular season and build around their expensive frontcourt will be fascinating to watch.

Greg Monroe will sign with the Boston Celtics, according to Adrian Wojnarowski‏ of ESPN.

Badly needed big man for Boston. Good signing. Maybe Stevens can refine his defense but this guy can always score. And without Hayward they need another scorer for sure.

Thanks for the Love information. I would have traded Love for Kennard, Bradley, and a protected #1.

rusty2 wrote:Thanks for the Love information. I would have traded Love for Kennard, Bradley, and a protected #1.

Me too because Kennard is promising, a #1 helps the future and Bradley is just a good player.

But another example of how Lebron's presence really limits any trade like that. It's 1 year at a time as long as he is here - and good long term moves like the one you suggested can't happen.

That's why I'd like to see him move on. Moving on is a win/win

How Kobe Bryant helped shape the defining summer of Kyrie Irving’s basketball life
By Tim Bontemps February 2 at 1:21 PM Email the author

Kyrie Irving learned from Kobe Bryant to take ownership of his career — something he did this summer in getting traded to Boston. (Lynne Sladky/AP)
SAN FRANCISCO — Last June, just days after losing in the NBA Finals, Kyrie Irving was told he might be traded to the Phoenix Suns.

Concerned about his future, and unsure about how to proceed, Irving did what he’s come to rely on in such moments: He called Kobe Bryant.

“He was one of the guys that I reached out to,” Irving said after a recent practice here. “Not necessarily to gauge his thoughts on the decision, or to give me the okay, but it was for some clarity and also what the next steps going forward [would be].

“Because there was some chance I was going to maybe be in Phoenix, or maybe in situations where the environment hadn’t been winning for a while, and Kobe dealt with that in 2005-06, and that was tough. So I had to ask him, and gauge him about that.

“But after the fact, after everything happened, he was just super proud, and super happy.”

Irving has emulated Bryant since he studied Bryant’s game in an endless series of YouTube clips while growing up in New Jersey. Bryant’s game, though, wasn’t the only thing Irving studied.

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He watched how Bryant tired of sharing the Los Angeles Lakers with Shaquille O’Neal, flirting with leaving for the Los Angeles Clippers as a free agent before O’Neal was traded. He saw Bryant demand a trade when he was unhappy with the direction of the franchise.

[NBA Podcast: The Detroit News’ Rod Beard on the Blake Griffin trade]

At every turn, he saw Bryant follow the same guiding principle: The one person who was going to control his career was Bryant himself.

“Despite what was going on from the outside influences and what everyone else felt was best for him, [Bryant] always did what was best for his career for himself,” Irving said. “He figured it out. At times throughout a professional career you’re going to be tested, and there are times where you’re going try to appease the media, you try to appease your teammates, you try to appease the coaching staff, whoever, whatever situation you are in, you try to kind of blend in.

“The best thing I learned from him is you don’t necessarily have to blend in. You can stand out.”


Bryant’s impact on Irving is obvious when looking at how the past few months — the most consequential of Irving’s basketball life — have played out.

It began with that phone call to Bryant after hearing rumors of a trade to the Suns as part of a three-team trade with the Indiana Pacers that would’ve brought Eric Bledsoe and Paul George to the Cavaliers, giving LeBron James a new supporting cast to take another run at the Golden State Warriors. And Irving would have left a team with a chance at a fourth straight NBA Finals for one trying to get back to respectability.

So when that trade fell apart, and Cleveland’s top two basketball executives — David Griffin and Trent Redden — were not retained by Cavaliers Owner Dan Gilbert, Irving took his basketball life into his own hands. He met with Gilbert and General Manager Koby Altman, who had been elevated to replace Griffin, and delivered a clear message: Trade me.

Eventually, the Cavaliers did, sending him to the Celtics for Isaiah Thomas, Jae Crowder and the Brooklyn Nets’ first round pick. So far, it has been everything he hoped it would be. Boston has overcome losing Gordon Hayward in the season opener — in Cleveland, no less — and now has the best record in the Eastern Conference.


[How NBA teams’ reckless spending on 2016 free agents is crippling the market today]

Boston’s success is not only because of all-star seasons from Irving and Al Horford, but thanks to significant contributions from second-year forward Jaylen Brown and rookie Jayson Tatum. Their development, coupled with the high likelihood of landing a top-five pick either this year or next year thanks to them trading down from the No. 1 pick this past offseason, means the future is plenty bright in Boston.

“It takes time,” Irving said. “Just like anything. But being in this environment, I felt like I’ve kind of thrown myself into it, being one of the leaders on the team, trying to help and guide these guys as much as possible while giving them the space to do what they feel is best for their careers.

“I don’t want to get in the way. I just want to aid them. That’s it. I’ve had some unbelievable experiences in my seven years in the league, and I know it’s going to continue, God willing, and I just try to do what’s best for our team and to integrate myself with these guys because they’re awesome. They’ve watched from the outside, and watched me go to the Finals and be in certain things and accolades, and I want the same for them.”


He might be able to lead them there sooner than expected. Between the struggles of his former team — the Cavaliers have lost 12 of their past 19 games — and the way the Celtics are playing, Boston could be the team that ends the stranglehold James has had over the Eastern Conference for the past seven years.

Last week, the Celtics lost a close game here against the Warriors, with Irving (39 points) and Stephen Curry (49) locked in the kind of duel they have been in so many times the past three seasons. And it wasn’t just their one-on-one matchup that made that game feel like it was being played in June, rather than late January.

“It’s always fun going against those guys,” Irving said with a smile. “You demand their respect, and you’ve earned it. And they’ve earned my respect, as well.

“Now being on a different team, I know most of the things they do well, and now I just bring some of those answers being with a different group to here.”

Irving wanted out of Cleveland for a chance to take ownership of his own team, and to lead it to the top of the sport. He has that chance now because, with his career at a crossroads, he followed Bryant’s example.

So far, it’s hard to argue with the results.

In a lengthy piece breaking down the levels of dysfunction within the Cleveland Cavaliers organization, Bleacher Report’s Ken Berger reported that guard Isaiah Thomas has become a “favorite” of Cavs owner Dan Gilbert.

This news is notable because Berger’s report also said that Gilbert is calling the shots in the department of basketball operations and not general manager Koby Altman.

Thomas has become a favorite of Gilbert, and they often exchange calls and text messages, a league source familiar with their relationship told B/R. This isn’t necessarily unusual on a team with an owner who is as involved in the basketball side of things as Gilbert is. It also isn’t great for locker room chemistry, because the rest of the players know it.

So, if any of you in Cavs world were hoping that it might be time for the Cavs to trade Isaiah Thomas for say, Kemba Walker, think again. Of course, it’s unfair to completely judge Thomas in his current state, but this latest news makes it highly unlikely the Cavs would part ways with him.

If Thomas as close with Gilbert as Berger says, then there’s no way he’s going to trade him or his beloved Brooklyn Nets pick. So, that leaves very few avenues for the Cavaliers to make a move that improves their team.

And on the flip side, you have Channing Frye, who is one of better guys for team chemistry on the team whose expiring contract could be an intriguing asset at the deadline. There are no easy fixes.

So, the Cavs are between a rock and a hard place on trying to make their team better before the deadline. There have been reports that the Cavs will definitely make a deal, but the latest news just shows how the Keeping Up With The Kavs drama is hamstringing the Cavs outlook on the court.

rusty2 wrote:
It began with that phone call to Bryant after hearing rumors of a trade to the Suns as part of a three-team trade with the Indiana Pacers that would’ve brought Eric Bledsoe and Paul George to the Cavaliers, giving LeBron James a new supporting cast to take another run at the Golden State Warriors..

Wow, how good does that trade sound now? Great one rusty, thanks.

Kyrie Irving Reportedly Nearly Traded to Suns in 3-Team Paul George Deal
ALEC NATHAN
AUGUST 25, 2017


Before the Cleveland Cavaliers traded Kyrie Irving to the Boston Celtics on Tuesday, the point guard was reportedly nearly a member of the Phoenix Suns.

Citing sources, The Athletic's Jason Lloyd reported Friday that the Cavaliers were "close" to shipping Irving to the desert in a three-team deal with the Indiana Pacers that would have sent Paul George and Eric Bledsoe to Cleveland.

As part of the framework, Channing Frye would have joined Irving in Phoenix, while the Pacers would have acquired the Suns' No. 4 overall pick that turned into Josh Jackson, as well as Jared Dudley and Iman Shumpert.



Lloyd noted the deal fell apart after Cavaliers owner Dan Gilbert decided to jettison former general manager David Griffin and executive Trent Redden before their contracts expired.

Koby Altman was subsequently named the team's new GM, and the Cavaliers dealt Irving to the Celtics in exchange for Isaiah Thomas, Jae Crowder, the Brooklyn Nets' 2018 first-round NBA draft pick and Ante Zizic.

Lloyd's report of a potential three-team trade between the Cavaliers, Suns and Pacers comes a month after ESPN.com's Ramona Shelburne, Dave McMenamin and Brian Windhorst relayed word that the defending Eastern Conference champions attempted to deal for George on draft night June 22.

Citing sources, they reported the "Nuggets were willing to include wing Gary Harris and the No. 13 pick in that night's draft to get Love, and the Cavs would reroute the assets to Indy for George."

Although the Cavaliers came up short in their pursuit of George, they were able to load up short-term with Thomas, Crowder and Zizic and acquire long-term security with the Nets pick in the event LeBron James and IT depart in free agency next summer.

LeBron James Reportedly Upset Cavs Didn't Trade for Paul George, Eric Bledsoe
ROB GOLDBERG
JANUARY 24, 2018

Cleveland Cavaliers forward LeBron James (23) waits for play to resume during the first half of an NBA basketball game against the San Antonio Spurs, Tuesday, Jan. 23, 2018, in San Antonio. James entered the game needing seven points to hit the 30,000 mark for career points; James scored 28 points. (AP Photo/Eric Gay)
Eric Gay/Associated Press
Things haven't been going smoothly for the Cleveland Cavaliers lately, and apparently LeBron James' complaints date back to at least the offseason.

As ESPN's Brian Windhorst reported on The Lowe Post, James is bothered the most by the team not trading for either Paul George or Eric Bledsoe (h/t Erik Garcia Gundersen of LeBron Wire).

George was traded from the Indiana Pacers to the Oklahoma City Thunder in the offseason, while Bledsoe was sent to the Milwaukee Bucks from the Phoenix Suns at the start of November.

Both players were on the trade block during the offseason, but the Cavaliers failed to acquire either player, even though they were offering Kyrie Irving in return.


Jackie MacMullan of ESPN reported there was a three-way deal in the works in June that would have sent both Bledsoe and George to Cleveland, with Irving and Channing Frye going to the Suns. Phoenix nixed the deal when it didn't want to send the No. 4 pick to the Pacers.

According to Windhorst and Ramona Shelburne, James also "aggressively recruited" George to come to Cleveland and stay there beyond his free agency in 2018.

Cleveland eventually landed Isaiah Thomas but had to send Irving to the conference rival Boston Celtics, which are currently in first place in the East.

Meanwhile, Thomas had missed most of the year with a hip injury, and the team is now struggling with 10 losses in its last 13 games.

Although there is still a lot of season remaining, Cleveland would likely be in better shape if it had an impact player like George on Bledsoe on the roster.

Great stuff rusty.

The Warriors are the elephant in the room here anyway. Like Stockton and Malone were blocked by Jordan back in the day, the Cavs' chances of winning another title are dim at best - with or without Bledsoe/George (although obviously they would have won the East easier)

What might have been....but if all this paves the way for the Cavs to move on without Lebron next season I say it all works for the best. They got their ring.

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Jason Lloyd
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12h12 hours ago
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The Cavs aren't trying tonight. Sorry. They're not.



Brian Windhorst
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The root of what's happening with Cavs is the adversarial relationship between LeBron James and Dan Gilbert. And they're running out of time to trust each other: