Personally, I don't think I can weather another rebuilding process with this ownship and this front office in place.
One more good reason for a rebuild.
Re: Articles
1997Perhaps an astute observation.loufla wrote:What is our record since penalizing Hagadone with no salary? That may have not gone over with many players on our team and possible signees. Another possible management gaffe.
Hagadone's exit did seem to be the time our team said we are done.
Re: Articles
1998rusty2 wrote:Indians Claim Fabio Martinez
By Ben Nicholson-Smith [August 6 at 1:18pm CST]
The Indians announced that they have claimed right-hander Fabio Martinez off of waivers from the Angels. The Indians optioned Martinez to Class A Carolina, where they plan to convert him to a reliever.
Martinez had been pitching at Class A Inland Empire this season, his sixth as a professional. The 22-year-old posted a 10.72 ERA with 9.1 K/9 and 12.7 BB/9 in 22 2/3 innings, all as a starter. He has a 3.90 ERA with 11.8 K/9 and 6.2 BB/9 in his minor league career. Martinez has two options remaining after this year, according to the Indians.
Someone told Mark Shapiro they should go get a guy with the guts and talent of Dennis Martinez, or the raw talent of Victor Martinez.
"Go get another Martinez."
So, Mark Shapiro in his brilliant Presidency had his lackeys dial up Fabio Martinez.
Rusty shared:
Martinez had been pitching at Class A Inland Empire this season, his sixth as a professional. The 22-year-old posted a 10.72 ERA with 9.1 K/9 and 12.7 BB/9 in 22 2/3 innings, all as a starter. He has a 3.90 ERA with 11.8 K/9 and 6.2 BB/9 in his minor league career. Martinez has two options remaining after this year, according to the Indians.
Did I read that right?
12.7 BB per 9 innings this season, and 6.2 BB per game for a career??
Martinez came from "The Inland Empire" where Angels home based scouts can visit relatively easily. And they gave up on him.
Last edited by Tribe Fan in SC/Cali on Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Articles
1999With all due respect. Thinking that Hagadone had anything to do with this losing streak is a real stretch.
Re: Articles
2000Indians must reevaluate organizational approach
By Anthony Castrovince | Archive
08/06/12 10:07 PM ET
CLEVELAND --
Manny Acta called it "the road trip from whatever word you want to use there."
I don't think he meant "Ashtabula."
No, this was the road trip from a much darker place. Acta's Indians went 0-9 in an AL Central swing through Minnesota, Kansas City and Detroit. It was, in no uncertain terms, the worst road trip in franchise history, and this would be notable if this were an expansion club, let alone a charter member of the American League.
When the trip began, the Indians were still on the fringes of contention. No matter what you believed about their ultimate staying power, they were a game over .500, 3 1/2 back of the first-place White Sox.
Now? Well, suffice to say they're scoreboard-watching in Cleveland no more. A few series losses on the roadie probably would have been enough for the Indians to fall out of contention. But in going 0-9, they summoned their inner Vincent Ludwig from "The Naked Gun" -- falling to the pavement, then getting trampled by a bus, a steamroller and the USC marching band.
In the nine-game stretch, Tribe starters went 0-7 with an 11.69 ERA. Derek Lowe and Johnny Damon were both kicked to the curb. The club was outscored 74-28. Not even a three-run, 10th-inning lead on the Tigers was safe in Sunday's finale, as closer Chris Perez, in what he would call the "low point of my professional career," coughed it up in epic fashion -- five runs scored and all with two out.
Needless to say, the Indians were pleased to get off the road. That is, until they went out and got blasted again Monday night, with the Twins stringing together 10 second-inning runs en route to a 14-3 romp at Progressive Field.
A happy homecoming, it was not.
So the question, with the losing streak in double digits and no end in sight, is no longer whether these Indians have what it takes to hang with the Sox and Tigers.
The question, rather, is where the Indians are headed in this so-called "window of contention" and are the right pieces in place to lead them there?
Remember, the Indians embraced that window a year ago, when they went all-in on Ubaldo Jimenez. But they finished two games below .500 in '11, and it's going to take .566 ball the rest of the way merely to get back to that mediocre 80-win mark in '12.
This is not progress.
Naturally, stretches such as this lead to pointed fingers from the fan base, and talk radio is not a recommended retreat for Acta and his coaches or any members of the Tribe front office at the moment.
"I'm sure we're all exceptionally popular right now," general manager Chris Antonetti joked.
Antonetti was asked about Acta's job security, and the question was predictable, given the circumstances.
So, too, was the answer.
"I certainly think he's part of the solution," Antonetti said, "not part of our issues."
Antonetti's right. Managers play the hand they are dealt, and Acta was dealt an unbalanced, undependable hand. It will be the job of the front office, once this bid for third place is completed, to determine how that hand came to be and what to make of it.
What's certain is that the Indians have not built a starting staff deep or reliable enough to be counted as a true contender. The Jimenez trade has not brought the intended results, and Justin Masterson has not taken that expected step into ace status this season. Carlos Carrasco's Tommy John surgery last September pulled the Cliff Lee trade import out of the picture until 2013. The Lowe experiment worked for all of two months, then imploded. Josh Tomlin and Jeanmar Gomez didn't stick. And Roberto Hernandez, the former Fausto Carmona, is counted as a crutch, even though he was anything but steady at the perceived age of 28 and is now known to be 31.
The only real bright spot for the Tribe rotation was the surprising Zach McAllister and his improved strikeout and walk rates. But after Monday's loss, he's given up 14 runs (six earned) on 11 hits in his last 7 2/3 innings pitched.
All of which is to say that, yeah, the Indians are in need of a rotation upgrade or three, and their budget and lack of movable prospects will make that a difficult area to upgrade.
"Pitching," Antonetti said, "is always an area we'll look to improve in the offseason."
To get it, the Indians will probably have to part with some assets, and Shin-Soo Choo, approaching free agency at the end of 2013, and Chris Perez, due a big pay boost in arbitration, are the obvious choices. But to move Choo, in particular, could only be perceived as a step back in the contention cycle, and so you see the hole that has been dug here.
Small-market clubs simply have smaller margin for error, and the errors made in the First-Year Player Draft and some particularly prominent trades (the CC Sabathia swap of '08 and the Lee deal of '09) caught up to the Indians in a big way in 2012.
There were offseason decisions -- primarily, the re-signing of Grady Sizemore, who has yet to play a game, and the ensuing inaction in left field until Damon was brought along in a Hail Mary -- that also played a part, and those problems were compounded by the inability of prominent pieces such as Masterson and Carlos Santana to take a step forward. One has to wonder how much the absence of Tim Belcher, who stepped down as pitching coach after the '11 season in order to spend more time with his family, has impacted the overall preparedness of the arms.
The bright side, if you can call it that, of brutal baseball is that it forces a hard examination of all facets of the organizational approach. The Indians are in a stretch of truly brutal baseball, and so the examination is scheduled.
"As a team, we have not performed to our expectations," Antonetti said. "We're in the process of reviewing what may have caused that and why we have performed the way we have. That's something we'll assess at the end of the year. Right now, our collective focus is how do we play better, how do we get the guys here to perform to their potential?"
Anthony Castrovince is a reporter for MLB.com. Read his columns and his blog, CastroTurf, and follow him on Twitter at @Castrovince. This story was not subject to the approval of Major League Baseball or its clubs.
By Anthony Castrovince | Archive
08/06/12 10:07 PM ET
CLEVELAND --
Manny Acta called it "the road trip from whatever word you want to use there."
I don't think he meant "Ashtabula."
No, this was the road trip from a much darker place. Acta's Indians went 0-9 in an AL Central swing through Minnesota, Kansas City and Detroit. It was, in no uncertain terms, the worst road trip in franchise history, and this would be notable if this were an expansion club, let alone a charter member of the American League.
When the trip began, the Indians were still on the fringes of contention. No matter what you believed about their ultimate staying power, they were a game over .500, 3 1/2 back of the first-place White Sox.
Now? Well, suffice to say they're scoreboard-watching in Cleveland no more. A few series losses on the roadie probably would have been enough for the Indians to fall out of contention. But in going 0-9, they summoned their inner Vincent Ludwig from "The Naked Gun" -- falling to the pavement, then getting trampled by a bus, a steamroller and the USC marching band.
In the nine-game stretch, Tribe starters went 0-7 with an 11.69 ERA. Derek Lowe and Johnny Damon were both kicked to the curb. The club was outscored 74-28. Not even a three-run, 10th-inning lead on the Tigers was safe in Sunday's finale, as closer Chris Perez, in what he would call the "low point of my professional career," coughed it up in epic fashion -- five runs scored and all with two out.
Needless to say, the Indians were pleased to get off the road. That is, until they went out and got blasted again Monday night, with the Twins stringing together 10 second-inning runs en route to a 14-3 romp at Progressive Field.
A happy homecoming, it was not.
So the question, with the losing streak in double digits and no end in sight, is no longer whether these Indians have what it takes to hang with the Sox and Tigers.
The question, rather, is where the Indians are headed in this so-called "window of contention" and are the right pieces in place to lead them there?
Remember, the Indians embraced that window a year ago, when they went all-in on Ubaldo Jimenez. But they finished two games below .500 in '11, and it's going to take .566 ball the rest of the way merely to get back to that mediocre 80-win mark in '12.
This is not progress.
Naturally, stretches such as this lead to pointed fingers from the fan base, and talk radio is not a recommended retreat for Acta and his coaches or any members of the Tribe front office at the moment.
"I'm sure we're all exceptionally popular right now," general manager Chris Antonetti joked.
Antonetti was asked about Acta's job security, and the question was predictable, given the circumstances.
So, too, was the answer.
"I certainly think he's part of the solution," Antonetti said, "not part of our issues."
Antonetti's right. Managers play the hand they are dealt, and Acta was dealt an unbalanced, undependable hand. It will be the job of the front office, once this bid for third place is completed, to determine how that hand came to be and what to make of it.
What's certain is that the Indians have not built a starting staff deep or reliable enough to be counted as a true contender. The Jimenez trade has not brought the intended results, and Justin Masterson has not taken that expected step into ace status this season. Carlos Carrasco's Tommy John surgery last September pulled the Cliff Lee trade import out of the picture until 2013. The Lowe experiment worked for all of two months, then imploded. Josh Tomlin and Jeanmar Gomez didn't stick. And Roberto Hernandez, the former Fausto Carmona, is counted as a crutch, even though he was anything but steady at the perceived age of 28 and is now known to be 31.
The only real bright spot for the Tribe rotation was the surprising Zach McAllister and his improved strikeout and walk rates. But after Monday's loss, he's given up 14 runs (six earned) on 11 hits in his last 7 2/3 innings pitched.
All of which is to say that, yeah, the Indians are in need of a rotation upgrade or three, and their budget and lack of movable prospects will make that a difficult area to upgrade.
"Pitching," Antonetti said, "is always an area we'll look to improve in the offseason."
To get it, the Indians will probably have to part with some assets, and Shin-Soo Choo, approaching free agency at the end of 2013, and Chris Perez, due a big pay boost in arbitration, are the obvious choices. But to move Choo, in particular, could only be perceived as a step back in the contention cycle, and so you see the hole that has been dug here.
Small-market clubs simply have smaller margin for error, and the errors made in the First-Year Player Draft and some particularly prominent trades (the CC Sabathia swap of '08 and the Lee deal of '09) caught up to the Indians in a big way in 2012.
There were offseason decisions -- primarily, the re-signing of Grady Sizemore, who has yet to play a game, and the ensuing inaction in left field until Damon was brought along in a Hail Mary -- that also played a part, and those problems were compounded by the inability of prominent pieces such as Masterson and Carlos Santana to take a step forward. One has to wonder how much the absence of Tim Belcher, who stepped down as pitching coach after the '11 season in order to spend more time with his family, has impacted the overall preparedness of the arms.
The bright side, if you can call it that, of brutal baseball is that it forces a hard examination of all facets of the organizational approach. The Indians are in a stretch of truly brutal baseball, and so the examination is scheduled.
"As a team, we have not performed to our expectations," Antonetti said. "We're in the process of reviewing what may have caused that and why we have performed the way we have. That's something we'll assess at the end of the year. Right now, our collective focus is how do we play better, how do we get the guys here to perform to their potential?"
Anthony Castrovince is a reporter for MLB.com. Read his columns and his blog, CastroTurf, and follow him on Twitter at @Castrovince. This story was not subject to the approval of Major League Baseball or its clubs.
“Every day is a new opportunity. You can build on yesterday's success or put its failures behind and start over again. That's the way life is, with a new game every day, and that's the way baseball is.”
-- Bob Feller
-- Bob Feller
Re: Articles
2001rusty2 wrote:With all due respect. Thinking that Hagadone had anything to do with this losing streak is a real stretch.
I'm not so sure.
Back when living in California earlier this season I watched Hagadone up close and personal with his teammates before the games in Oakland, and in the bullpen with his pen mates. Hagadone was a disciplined workman, and his intensity on succeeding exuded.
I don't think his fellow team members could or would have missed that
Re: Articles
2002Don't stop there AnthonySmall-market clubs simply have smaller margin for error, and the errors made in the First-Year Player Draft and some particularly prominent trades (the CC Sabathia swap of '08 and the Lee deal of '09) caught up to the Indians in a big way in 2012.
There were offseason decisions -- primarily, the re-signing of Grady Sizemore, who has yet to play a game, and the ensuing inaction in left field until Damon was brought along in a Hail Mary -- that also played a part, and those problems were compounded by the inability of prominent pieces such as Masterson and Carlos Santana to take a step forward.
“Every day is a new opportunity. You can build on yesterday's success or put its failures behind and start over again. That's the way life is, with a new game every day, and that's the way baseball is.”
-- Bob Feller
-- Bob Feller
Re: Articles
2003Major League Bastian
Beating the drum with Indians.com reporter Jordan Bastian
Hang 10: Indians’ historic skid continues
I wrote on Wednesday night in Kansas City that I was not going to do another “Covering the Bases” blog post until the Indians won another game. I never would’ve guessed that, nearly a week later, Cleveland’s losing streak would still be active.
In my days covering the Blue Jays, I chronicled a pair of nine-game slides. To be honest, I don’t remember much about them. I find it hard to believe — due to the timing and the consequences – I’ll ever forget this one.
The Indians went from such an emotional high (beating Justin Verlander in comeback fashion on July 26 to pull within 3.5 games of first place) to such an incredible, gut-wrenching low. Here we are, it’s now Aug. 6, and Cleveland is suddenly 10.5 games back. The Tribe’s deficit wasn’t that deep until Sept. 10 last season.
There have been roster casualties (Derek Lowe, Johnny Damon and Jeremy Accardo have each been designated for assignment) and demotions (Josh Tomlin booted from rotation to bullpen). There has been a ball lost in the sun (Ezequiel Carrera), a runner caught over-running first base in fair ground (Carlos Santana) and one epic blown save (Chris Perez).
And, in the latest edition of this incredible collapse, there was a 10-run inning that seemed sadly poetic in this 10th consecutive defeat. So, cover your children’s eyes, and make sure you’re sitting down, because here is a quick rundown that puts some historical perspective on this losing streak:
•The Indians have nine losing streaks of 10 or more games, dating back to 1918.
•This is the longest losing streak for the Indians since the team dropped 11 in a row in September of 2009.
•The club’s longest losing streak was a 12-game skid from May 7-21, 1931.
•There have been only two losing streaks of 11 games: the one in 2009 and another that took place in 1928.
•This marks only the seventh time since 1918 that an Indians team has allowed five runs or more in 10 consecutive games (wins or losses). The record is 11 such games in a row (Sept. 23, 2008-April 11, 2009).
•There have been 327 losing streaks of 10 or more games in baseball history, dating back to 1918. This is only the 13th time that a Major League team has given up at least five runs in each of the losses.
•The Indians have allowed 88 runs in the past 10 games. That marks the most runs allowed by Cleveland in any 10-game stretch since the club gave up 89 runs in a 10-game period in August of 1938.
•Cleveland’s pitching staff has an 8.12 ERA (77 ER/85.1 IP) during the current 10-game losing streak. That is the highest ERA posted by an Indians team in any of the nine 10-game skids in franchise history.
•Cleveland’s starting rotation has gone 0-8 with an 11.66 ERA (57 ER/44 IP) over the 10-game losing streak. Zach McAllister’s outing (1.2 IP) on Monday marked the sixth time in 10 losses that the Tribe’s starting pitcher lasted fewer than five innings.
•The 10 runs allowed in the second inning represented the most runs yielded in a single inning by the Indians since the club gave up 12 runs to the Red Sox in the sixth inning on May 7, 2009 at Fenway Park.
•It marked the most runs allowed in an inning at Progressive Field since the Tribe gave up 10 runs to the Angels in the eighth inning on April 30, 2002.
•Over the course of the 10-game skid, the Indians offense has hit a collective .219 (75-for-343) with 31 run scored (3.1 per game).
•Over the 10 losses, the Indians have been outscored 13-4 through the first inning, 31-7 through the second inning, 39-13 through three innings and 58-15 through four innings. That means they’ve been down roughly five runs on average after four frames.
Quote of the Day:
“I asked one of my coaches to pinch me. I couldn’t believe what was happening.”
–Indians manager Manny Acta, on the Twins’ 10-run second inning on Monday
Beating the drum with Indians.com reporter Jordan Bastian
Hang 10: Indians’ historic skid continues
I wrote on Wednesday night in Kansas City that I was not going to do another “Covering the Bases” blog post until the Indians won another game. I never would’ve guessed that, nearly a week later, Cleveland’s losing streak would still be active.
In my days covering the Blue Jays, I chronicled a pair of nine-game slides. To be honest, I don’t remember much about them. I find it hard to believe — due to the timing and the consequences – I’ll ever forget this one.
The Indians went from such an emotional high (beating Justin Verlander in comeback fashion on July 26 to pull within 3.5 games of first place) to such an incredible, gut-wrenching low. Here we are, it’s now Aug. 6, and Cleveland is suddenly 10.5 games back. The Tribe’s deficit wasn’t that deep until Sept. 10 last season.
There have been roster casualties (Derek Lowe, Johnny Damon and Jeremy Accardo have each been designated for assignment) and demotions (Josh Tomlin booted from rotation to bullpen). There has been a ball lost in the sun (Ezequiel Carrera), a runner caught over-running first base in fair ground (Carlos Santana) and one epic blown save (Chris Perez).
And, in the latest edition of this incredible collapse, there was a 10-run inning that seemed sadly poetic in this 10th consecutive defeat. So, cover your children’s eyes, and make sure you’re sitting down, because here is a quick rundown that puts some historical perspective on this losing streak:
•The Indians have nine losing streaks of 10 or more games, dating back to 1918.
•This is the longest losing streak for the Indians since the team dropped 11 in a row in September of 2009.
•The club’s longest losing streak was a 12-game skid from May 7-21, 1931.
•There have been only two losing streaks of 11 games: the one in 2009 and another that took place in 1928.
•This marks only the seventh time since 1918 that an Indians team has allowed five runs or more in 10 consecutive games (wins or losses). The record is 11 such games in a row (Sept. 23, 2008-April 11, 2009).
•There have been 327 losing streaks of 10 or more games in baseball history, dating back to 1918. This is only the 13th time that a Major League team has given up at least five runs in each of the losses.
•The Indians have allowed 88 runs in the past 10 games. That marks the most runs allowed by Cleveland in any 10-game stretch since the club gave up 89 runs in a 10-game period in August of 1938.
•Cleveland’s pitching staff has an 8.12 ERA (77 ER/85.1 IP) during the current 10-game losing streak. That is the highest ERA posted by an Indians team in any of the nine 10-game skids in franchise history.
•Cleveland’s starting rotation has gone 0-8 with an 11.66 ERA (57 ER/44 IP) over the 10-game losing streak. Zach McAllister’s outing (1.2 IP) on Monday marked the sixth time in 10 losses that the Tribe’s starting pitcher lasted fewer than five innings.
•The 10 runs allowed in the second inning represented the most runs yielded in a single inning by the Indians since the club gave up 12 runs to the Red Sox in the sixth inning on May 7, 2009 at Fenway Park.
•It marked the most runs allowed in an inning at Progressive Field since the Tribe gave up 10 runs to the Angels in the eighth inning on April 30, 2002.
•Over the course of the 10-game skid, the Indians offense has hit a collective .219 (75-for-343) with 31 run scored (3.1 per game).
•Over the 10 losses, the Indians have been outscored 13-4 through the first inning, 31-7 through the second inning, 39-13 through three innings and 58-15 through four innings. That means they’ve been down roughly five runs on average after four frames.
Quote of the Day:
“I asked one of my coaches to pinch me. I couldn’t believe what was happening.”
–Indians manager Manny Acta, on the Twins’ 10-run second inning on Monday
“Every day is a new opportunity. You can build on yesterday's success or put its failures behind and start over again. That's the way life is, with a new game every day, and that's the way baseball is.”
-- Bob Feller
-- Bob Feller
Re: Articles
2004So you think the team quit winning because the team quit paying Hagadone because he hurt himself after finding out he was going to the minors ? That does not make sense.Tribe Fan in SC/Cali wrote:rusty2 wrote:With all due respect. Thinking that Hagadone had anything to do with this losing streak is a real stretch.
I'm not so sure.
Back when living in California earlier this season I watched Hagadone up close and personal with his teammates before the games in Oakland, and in the bullpen with his pen mates. Hagadone was a disciplined workman, and his intensity on succeeding exuded.
I don't think his fellow team members could or would have missed that
Re: Articles
2005So you think the team quit winning because the team quit paying Hagadone because he hurt himself after finding out he was going to the minors ? That does not make sense
I am just saying that teams that have bonded sometimes may get frustrated if they feel someone was not treated well. Before the losing streak was full blown talk began about Choo and Masterson and Perez being expendable. All of that may not contribute to the best attitude.
Just saying.
I actually know nothing.
I am just saying that teams that have bonded sometimes may get frustrated if they feel someone was not treated well. Before the losing streak was full blown talk began about Choo and Masterson and Perez being expendable. All of that may not contribute to the best attitude.
Just saying.
I actually know nothing.
Re: Articles
2006Actually losing streaks, like slumps, feed on themselves.
That I do believe strongly.
A good 22 run victory like over the Yankees some years back would probably help a lot.
That I do believe strongly.
A good 22 run victory like over the Yankees some years back would probably help a lot.
Re: Articles
2007This organization is known for how well they treat their players. That is why you have to know there was something really odd about the Hagadone situation.
Re: Articles
2008Rusty- I do agree with that.
But there is also something strange about our falling apart completely.
But there is also something strange about our falling apart completely.
Re: Articles
2009Remarkably two Indians are rated among on the Baseball America Best Tools list for 2012.
Asdrubal ties with Brendan Ryan on the Mariners, who I've never heard of, as 2nd best AL defensive SS behind Elvis Andrus, who I have heard of.
Choo is rated 2nd best OF arm in the AL behind Jose Bautista.
Great defensive 1B Casey Kotchman is not one of the three best defensive 1b in the AL. Those 3, who also have an ability to hit, are in order Teixara, A. Gonzalez and Hosmer.
Asdrubal ties with Brendan Ryan on the Mariners, who I've never heard of, as 2nd best AL defensive SS behind Elvis Andrus, who I have heard of.
Choo is rated 2nd best OF arm in the AL behind Jose Bautista.
Great defensive 1B Casey Kotchman is not one of the three best defensive 1b in the AL. Those 3, who also have an ability to hit, are in order Teixara, A. Gonzalez and Hosmer.
Re: Articles
2010I don't think we have to go looking for any ghosts here. Truth is the team just played above their heads early on. Now things are just even-ing out, as they always do over 162 games.
If you would have been told in March that Masterson and the entire rotation was going to stink, Sizemore would be nonexistent, and we would get no production at all from 1B and LF, how many games would you have predicted we would win?
Probably right around where we are going to finish up...
The brass made this bed by not addressing glaring needs and, even though it took a little while, they are now having to lie in it.
If you would have been told in March that Masterson and the entire rotation was going to stink, Sizemore would be nonexistent, and we would get no production at all from 1B and LF, how many games would you have predicted we would win?
Probably right around where we are going to finish up...
The brass made this bed by not addressing glaring needs and, even though it took a little while, they are now having to lie in it.